STOPTIME: Live in the Moment.

Dr. Kevin Spencer PhD: Captivated By Impossibility

June 01, 2023 Season 8 Episode 19
STOPTIME: Live in the Moment.
Dr. Kevin Spencer PhD: Captivated By Impossibility
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What if the applause of one person could be more meaningful than the applause of 2500 people? Join us for a transformative conversation with Dr. Kevin Spencer, an esteemed performing artist and authority on the academic and therapeutic benefits of simple magic tricks. In this heartwarming episode, we follow Kevin's journey from the big stage to classrooms and hospitals, touching the lives of children with autism, developmental disabilities, intellectual challenges, and emotional disturbance.

Together, we explore the enchanting world of magic and artistry, discussing how Kevin's understanding of music and performance informed his approach to magic. Learn how his career evolved from the college market to the performing arts market, and how a traumatic accident changed his perspective on the power of art and entertainment. We also delve into the therapeutic and connecting aspects of teaching magic tricks to people with disabilities, reshaping their self-concept and improving their quality of life.

Finally, don't miss our discussion on Kevin's groundbreaking research on magic and autism, how a chance encounter with a pediatric patient changed his life, and the powerful impact of amazement and curiosity in breaking down communication barriers.  This is an episode full of lessons, inspiration, and heartfelt moments that you simply cannot miss.

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Speaker 1: This is the Stop Time podcast. I'm your host, lisa Hopkins, and I'm here to engage you in thought-provoking, motivational conversations around practicing the art of living in the moment. I'm a certified life coach and I'm excited to dig deep and offer insights into embracing who we are and where we are at. So my next guest is a unique personality. I had so much fun with this conversation. 

Speaker 1: He's an award-winning performing artist who, along with his wife and partner, cindy, toured the world for more than 25 years with one of the largest and most successful theatrical illusion productions in the US. They left behind a trail of accolades in their wake, including 2009 international illusionists of the year and six-time recipients of Performing Arts Entertainer of the year. They're also the recipients of the Magic Industry's most prestigious award given by the Milburn Christopher Foundation the two 2015 international illusionists of the year for notable contributions to the art of magic. At the pinnacle of their career, they stepped away from the big stage and into classrooms and hospitals around the globe. My next guest is the leading international authority on the academic and therapeutic benefits of simple magic tricks in educational and clinical settings. His amazing work focuses on using the art of magic to impact change in the lives of children with autism, developmental disabilities, intellectual challenges, emotional disturbance and those who have experienced trauma. So it's with pleasure that I introduce you all to Dr Kevin Spencer and we jumped right in. Hey Kevin, where are you calling in from? 

Speaker 2: I'm just outside of Little Rock, arkansas. Okay, we used to be on the East Coast, but during that my mom and dad retired here years ago and I have a sister here and a younger brother up in Northwest Arkansas. So during the pandemic, when nobody was doing anything, we took the opportunity to move closer to my family. Very nice. 

Speaker 1: Yeah. 

Speaker 2: Our stories are just so similar, the way we were both on these separate paths and not finding this place of integrating the two works together. And mine definitely happened during the first financial crisis of 2008,. Because I was already doing this work, but I wasn't, to use your word, leveraging it within the marketplace, and some presenters kind of knew that I was doing this work. But it was in that financial crisis where presenters started coming to me saying hey look, one of the hospitals is a major sponsor of our performing arts season. If they gave us money, i understand you're doing this thing, as you know, on your own. Is there a way that we could leverage that and give something of value back to the hospital for their donation and for their sponsorship? And that's when it started to roll for me. I think presenters saw this unique opportunity to connect with their community in a different way, and then my residency just started to roll to the point that it rolled past it. 

Speaker 2: I mean, we had to make a decision about were we going to take on more residency work at the expense of the actual production, and it just got to this place of we had to make a decision, and for Cindy and I it was a fairly easy decision to make. We had been on the road for over 30 years already. We had worked with almost every major performing arts center in the US, we'd done four international tours, performing in some of the most incredible theaters in Europe and Asia, and it just got to this place of. You know, this is great. I mean, who gets to grow up and do this right? I mean we are so privileged to do what we do. But it was bigger than that. It was like how many times do we need the applause of another? you know, 2500 seat audience when we can do this really significant, meaningful, impactful work, and the applause of one is so much more powerful sometimes than the applause of 2500. So it was. It was easy for us to kind of say OK, so this is what we're going to do. 

Speaker 1: Yeah, that's amazing And so important what you said about the applause of one. You know it's funny. little impact everywhere, right, i mean I really it's. it's like we all, we all dream about. I want to, and it's great, right, i mean, i want to make an impact in the world And you know we're so busy going for that dream that we forget all the impact we can make along the way. The little ones. 

Speaker 2: Yes, the little ones, Yeah, and the little ones are meaningful, you know, the big ones are. Certainly those are meaningful and there's something to shoot forward to, to look at and say this is where I want to be, this is what I want to do. But if you miss all of those little impactful moments along the way that that build up to those big moments, then you've missed an opportunity to serve people in a way that can be really life changing for them And for you. You know, we all learn so much from those experiences. 

Speaker 1: I really want to ask you, because I think everyone will be. I know I'm fascinated, so take us back to when you found magic. 

Speaker 2: Oh, and so that's pretty vivid still for me. I saw my first magician perform on television when I was five And remember saying to my mom when I grow up I'm going to be a magician. And, as every good southern mother does, right, she patted me on the head and she said you can do whatever you want to if you put your mind to it. When I was about eight, they bought me a magic set for Christmas And I learned those little tricks, carried them to elementary school and junior high school with me, ended up working my way through college doing magic. 

Speaker 2: I actually went to college on a music scholarship and I was studying to be a concert pianist, so performance was always kind of an aspect of what I wanted to do, but it was always wrapped around. Performance was secondary to wanting to do something that I loved, and I loved music So, and I loved playing the piano and I thought I'm good at this, i could, i could do this and maybe bring joy to other people through the music. But when I got into college I just got bit again by that magic bug, and the more I started to do shows in college, the more I recognized this was really the direction that I wanted to go. So I changed my major from music to psychology, because if you're going to be a magician and mess with people's minds, you should have a little bit of understanding of how they work. So did the psychology thing And then, when I finished school, moved to Dallas because I knew I didn't want to go to Chicago because I was too cold. 

Speaker 2: I didn't want to go to New York because it was too big And I didn't want to go to LA because everybody goes to LA. So where could I go to still kind of make a mark in the entertainment industry? And Dallas was really starting to kind of come alive at that point. A lot of agencies were going in there, a lot of talent agencies were going in there. So I moved. I moved to Dallas And my one of my old college roommates was getting finishing a television degree at one of the universities And he said come, come to Texas, we'll get an apartment together. And so that's what I did, that's so cool. 

Speaker 1: What was it about them? about the magic when you were five. What was it? Do you think what really intrigued you? What drew you to it? 

Speaker 2: That's a great question. I think it was recognizing the impossibility of what had just happened. I think that was part of it. You know that that's not supposed to happen, and yet it just did, and being completely captivated by the way I felt how that made me feel, and I think that's something we never lose, even as we get into our adulthood. We'd sometimes tap it Down because we don't want to. 

Speaker 2: Some people don't want to be fooled. Some people think that that's maybe a weakness that they have, that somebody could, could do that, and I couldn't understand it. But I think, as human beings, curiosity is such a natural part of who we are And when we see the impossibility of something, it really can transport us back to these childhood experiences where everything was impossible when we were, when we were growing up, and every little miracle that we experienced. You know everything, from learning to walk to learning to write and school, every part of school, from first to second grade. These are all magical experiences because we learn and we take on these new impossibilities, and I think I was just kind of captivated by impossibility. That's not supposed to happen, and yet it did. I want to do that. 

Speaker 1: That's cool. You strike me as someone that even even as at a young age, because you talked about the piano and knowing that you were gifted. So it's kind of interesting that it's coming to me that maybe the magic was something. Was it something that made you actually feel challenged, or was it something that, no, i could do that, or was it? you know, you strike me as a really smart person, someone who likes to you know, be intrigued and challenged. Talk to me So I do love to be challenged. 

Speaker 2: I love a good challenge. You know, growing up, even into college, my friends used to always to say I was not the guy who stood on the edge, i was the guy who wrapped his toes around the edge and perched there. So I do like that. I do like to be challenged, and I think part of what magic is about is that it challenges our perceptions of the world of reality, because you really have to look at something and go what, what? what just happened there? And our minds do not like to live in this place of not understanding. We have this need to process information. I mean, it's what makes us human, and so when you're greeted, when you're confronted with these impossibilities, our brain just goes nuts And it's like what just happened? I need to understand that. I need to understand that We used to joke about when we were traveling on the road. 

Speaker 2: It takes two different kinds of people in the audience to make a great audience for the magic show. You have to have those people who are willing to come in and just suspend their belief for a little while and just say, whatever happens, it's going to happen and I'm going to love it. But you also have to have those people who question everything How did he do that? Oh, i think, and even if they come up with the most ridiculous explanation to the trick, it satisfies their need to process that information. So they can go. But when intermission happens, if you don't have both of those people, there's no conversation in the lobby. Ah, interesting, there's gotta be those people who say, oh, i think I know how he did it. To those people who say I don't wanna know, i don't wanna know, you've gotta have both of those people to get that conversation going during intermission. And then when the audience comes back for the second half of the show, it's a different audience. 

Speaker 2: Yeah, we had a real structure to the way, a psychological structure to the way the show came together, and the first half of the show really was about establishing our presence as magicians, as illusionists and doing all of these theatrical impossibilities on the stage. 

Speaker 2: We wanted them to know that one. We were different, that we really believed in doing magic as a theatrical art form and not just throwing a trick on the stage and being a trick machine. We wanted there to be meaning and emotion connected to what they were seeing on the stage, and so every illusion was so carefully designed for us and created for us to help us capture that emotional experience. We used to always wonder why magicians didn't treat magic in the same way that dancers treat dance or musicians treat music or actors treat theater. The art of illusion has the ability to move people both intellectually and emotionally, in the same way as all great art disciplines. It's just magicians don't always do a very good job of doing that, and that's what we wanted to do. We wanted our audiences to experience the show on an intellectual level and on an emotional level. 

Speaker 1: It's so fascinating because it sounds so beyond what most people think magic to be right, which is just to be either sit back, like you said, and go oh yeah, let's see this guy, see if he can trick me he can't trick me, this isn't real right Or just be delighted by it. It's like the fine line between being delighted and then also shifting their you're shifting their perspectives, right That's? it's a much deeper thing than tricking them, right? 

Speaker 2: Yes, yeah, my art goal was never to trick them. We never wanted. Far too often I hear from people I don't really like magicians. It's like why? Well, because there's an element of arrogance that comes with magic that they feel like I know something you don't know And I'm gonna hold this over your head as a performer And I'm gonna do this trick and I'm gonna look at you like, hmm. 

Speaker 2: So my teacher, my mentor, was a magician that was really popular in the 70s and 80s, a guy named Doug Henning, and Doug was a brilliant performer. He was the first real magician to take a show to Broadway with the magic show, and he had this concept of magic that was very different from everybody else at the time. Everything was still in tucks and tails and gloves, top hats and stages were dark and magicians were in spotlights. And Doug came on the scene, this long-haired hippie guy from Canada And in bright blue overalls and rainbow tennis shoes, and the stage was bright and there were clouds and rainbows and stars and nothing was hidden. Nothing was in the dark And Doug was as amazed by his magic as the audience was. He never held it over you. He would do this trick and it would be like look at that check that out. Isn't that amazing? And so you liked him. You liked him a lot, and because you liked him, you liked what he did on stage. 

Speaker 1: Yeah, it's so interesting And, like you said, there are so many preconceived notions about what that is right. We all put people in a box, but I'm really curious to know how that developed. Another person might be saying I can imagine someone saying oh, you know, i wanted to trick people and I loved it when I made people laugh, or when I you know, i'm not hearing that at all. I'm hearing first that you were intrigued by it because it challenged you, so it was really a relationship between you and the magic. First there was no attachment to how you were gonna use this right, right, right, and then it must have evolved into oh, oh, oh, i get it right. So you're using your brain right And you're playing, and then you must have, obviously, the next element is doing it with people having that other element right. How did that change or shift in terms of knowing what your responsibility or capabilities were or how you could use it? I mean for an early age? 

Speaker 2: So I have really vivid memories of like being in fifth grade and doing magic in fifth grade during recess and that sort of thing. You know, what I think always drew me to magic was not so much how I could trick people but how I can make them feel, yeah, that through a magic trick they could feel this surprise or amazing or sense of wonder. And I think because I also played the piano and I could relate to how music made people feel. 

Speaker 2: I think this is the difference between an artist and a performer, regardless of what their art form is. We have lots of people who are performers. We have very few people who are artists who can take their discipline and actually impact the way somebody feels, the way somebody thinks, the way they are in that moment. And I think, as somebody who studied music, i understood the power of music to change the way we feel or to let us experience new emotions, and I think I transferred that over to magic. I saw how a simple, ridiculous little magic trick could make somebody feel something different, and I think that's what captivated me. 

Speaker 1: Yeah, it makes sense. Do you think that? because I know that you said that they were pretty equal in terms of you being drawn to them. Do you think the aspect of magic had the one extra element, which was you really saw the audience reaction in real time and were part of it too, Like that? 

Speaker 2: you were able to interact, yeah, Yeah, and that interaction part, I think, is what I needed as a human but also needed as an artist. It was, you know, i didn't want, while I loved playing the piano, it was never. It was not. That is not an interactive experience for the audience, and magic so is an interactive experience with the audience. You know it's immediate. You see that impact that you have instantly. 

Speaker 2: And one of the things that we always found so curious about our shows and my crew used to always say it was because Cindy and I just made the audience so comfortable is that it didn't make any difference whether you were playing a house of a thousand or a house of 3,000. People felt like they could talk to you from the audience and they would. And those were like really awesome moments where you felt like that fourth wall was really down, yeah, and they were a part of the experience. That was happening, love it, and they would yell things out. Or you know, and you know this too, is it the more familiar you are with your art form And you have an opportunity then to really capitalize on those moments where you are so connected to the audience And a great deal of impromptu and spontaneity happens in those moments that's really beautiful and unique to that experience for that audience. So I think that was I think absolutely you're right, that's one of the things that I loved was that instant sort of understanding of what was happening. 

Speaker 1: Was there an aha moment when you realized how much magic could actually really help other people and you really wanted to go in that direction? 

Speaker 2: Yeah, i think this is true for a lot of artists, but I think a lot of people in general that things like this become really personal for them. These become personal moments for us. We started our career in the college market before jumping to the performing arts market. We were in the college market for about 10 years and in that 10 years we were a campus entertainer of the year. So we were making these huge strides in the college market And I had come home. We had come home off the tour to vote and then we were going to go back on the road again And we were dropping off a vehicle to get fixed. And so Cindy was ahead of me with the show vehicle and I was in the other one and I got stuck at a stoplight a new stoplight that was in town. So they went on through and I was just going to meet them at the mechanics. But what had happened is a tractor trailer came off the interstate and didn't realize there was a stoplight there because it was a new light And it didn't have enough time to stop and it hit me from behind, broke my seat in half, i crashed into the rear window The real windshield car was rolling. I climbed back out, went to put my foot on the brake and it hit something again and threw me back. I woke up in neurologic intensive care with a closed brain injury and a lower spinal cord injury and spent a long time in therapy just regaining all the skills I'd lost as a result of that accident. 

Speaker 2: Magic was a really important way back for me. When you ask a patient, a client in therapy to do something like picking up a marble and dropping it in a glass or putting a peg in the board, and they can't do that They don't have the fine motor dexterity to be able to do that There's nothing motivating about. I can't wait to pick up a marble and put it in a glass. What it does for you is it just confirms in your mind how absolutely broken you are. But when you teach somebody a magic trick, something that there is no expectation that they should know how to do we should know how to put a marble in the glass You shouldn't know how to do a magic trick. It's not something that you're taught when you're a kid. Whether you're a stroke patient or a pediatric patient or a young adult in a car accident, there is no expectation that you should know how to do a magic trick. Not the learning of a magic trick incorporates all the same cognitive and motor processes as traditional forms of magic. But now you have something you can show somebody when you're done And you shouldn't know how to do it When you are working on it. 

Speaker 2: Failure isn't one of those things that you just get frustrated with and go, oh, i can't do this. We're picking up a marble and putting it in a glass. It's pretty easy to get frustrated. But with a magic trick, because there is no expectation that you should know how to do it, there is no expectation that you should get it right the first time, so you're willing to practice it over and over and over again, and as you're practicing it, you're doing your therapy. You just don't recognize it as being therapy. 

Speaker 2: And the main thing about that is magic is it works on three levels. It's about dexterity. You have to be able to manipulate the props to do the trick. So every trick that we've put into this magic therapy program are designed so that they can be made more difficult or easy based on the abilities of the client, so every patient can be successful with that trick. So it's about dexterity. 

Speaker 2: It's also about motivation. Even a kid knows and understands that you have to practice something if you want to get it right, so they practice it. They're motivated to practice it because of the last thing. It's about socialization. I now have a positive social experience to share with somebody. I'm going to show them this magic trick And that's really powerful for somebody who has a disability, somebody who has a debilitating injury from an accident, giving them something that reshapes their self-concept from how broken I am, to wow, look what I can do. 

Speaker 2: And then being able to do that to a friend, a family member, and that family member go oh my gosh, wait, how did you do that? That's a completely different feeling for them And that becomes more motivating for them to be able to say, okay, let me learn another one, but let's learn a harder one this time, and with all of the movements, because they are doing therapy. It translates over into every activity of daily living. If you can magically make a knot appear in the middle of the rope, you can button your shirt, you can tie your shoes, you can pick up your fork. We're developing all the skills that transfer over into making their lives better and more productive. But they just don't recognize it that way because in their mind they're just learning a magic trick Wow, i have. We call it stealth therapy. 

Speaker 1: Oh yeah, well, it's so clear, it's so obvious and so brilliant. I'm so glad we're having this conversation. It makes so much sense. 

Speaker 2: For older people. It is such a cool way. The first group of people we ever worked with were stroke clients, so older. I remember one of the individuals my wife was working with was an older guy. He was working so hard on these tricks And he said my grandkids are coming to visit me this weekend. So what would I rather say to them Hey, watch grandpa put this peg in a board, or let grandpa show you a magic trick. So for him it was not just about gaining the skill to be able to improve his dexterity, it was about maintaining a relationship with his grandchildren, and I think all too often we forget that that's such an important part of being human is maintaining those relationships 100%. 

Speaker 1: I mean it's connecting to your values. When I speak with my clients, often it's these red flag moments where you think, oh, something doesn't feel right or it wasn't what I thought it would be. That's signaling a value either that's not being addressed that is important to you, Or that's being challenged. 

Speaker 2: And those are questions we don't ever ask ourselves. I mean, we don't? We get so caught up in life and doing that we never really stop and take a step back and ask ourselves so why am I doing this? I was having this conversation this morning in my brain just why do I do what I do? And I am really fortunate to be able to stay really busy in this second career, but sometimes it's easy. I just finished a ridiculously insane spring schedule, way more than I probably should have ever taken on, but it's always easy to put it down on paper, right. It's always a lot harder to do it, and this was a challenging spring for us. I was gone a lot, a lot of international stuff, so it was tough. But then you step back and you ask yourself when you're in the middle of it, you never really take a step back to appreciate what's happening. But over the weekend I had an opportunity to sit down and go wow, okay, so this is where I was, this is what happened, and to read through some of the emails or the comments or the evaluations and recognize recenter where you are and really know why you're doing what you do. 

Speaker 2: And it's been for me, for my wife. This has been such a different experience, you know 30 years on the road, with her getting cut in half every night and me throwing my body through the blades of a fan to doing these professional development, training for teachers on how to engage their students with disabilities, or working in a hospital with child life professionals or occupational therapists or physical therapists, you know, and being able to create. For me right now, the most important thing is sustainability. I'm not going to be able to do this forever, so I believe enough in this work that how do we create that when I step away, this work stays in place? How do we do that? And so my connection with universities, you know, teaching undergrad and graduate students, this kind of approach. What does arts integration really look like in a special education classroom? And what does the integration of magic tricks actually look like in a special education classroom? How can I come in with child life specialists in a hospital or pediatric ER doctors? How can I teach them a magic trick to help them reduce the anxiety in a pediatric client and build better rapport and trust between them and that kid? How can I teach an ER nurse to use a magic trick to explain a medical procedure to a child in a way that's fun and entertaining and pulls back the anxiety and the fear about what's going to happen. And it's crazy sometimes when you think that magic has the potential to do these crazy big things. Because that's not the way we think of the arts. We talk. We talk as members of this arts community. We often talk. It's our motto that we transform, inspire, challenge, build community. What does that mean? What you know, those words are easy words to say And as a magician, i've said them a lot. But now, for the first time in these last eight years, my wife and I have really been able to focus on transforming, inspiring. What that looks like with a magic trick. How do you take? 

Speaker 2: I went back to school because of a kid. I was working with Our show when Cindy and I were traveling. Our show was not. It was very family friendly, but we didn't perform for a family audience. Very often It was sophisticated magic done in a big production style. So most of the time we were brought into a performing arts series on the same series as their Broadway productions And 99% of our audience would be adults. And so when we did the magic therapy thing, we also only work with adults, which makes no sense to anybody that hears me say this, because you automatically. It's one of those things we were talking about earlier of the stereotype of tap dance or magician You think magic, you think kids. Well, one of our goals was to break that stereotype so that when you thought magic, you thought adult, you thought spectacle, you thought amazement, you thought wonder. We wanted to break that, and so when we started the magic therapy program, we also only worked with adults and never took us into a pediatric situation. 

Speaker 2: I was working in South Florida, we had been booked to do three performances at a performing arts center there, and one of the patrons had some money and he gave it to the executive director and said I want you to find an artist that can merge the arts and medicine. And so John was like I know you can do this And I'm like, absolutely, this was 2009. And I went in. I did three days of training at this large hospital system in South Florida And then the last day, they asked me if I could model this for their therapist so they could see, actually, how we all know the tricks. Now How do we actually really use them? I walked into this room to work with a client And when I walked through the door it was a kid, it was like a nine year old boy, and I literally turned right around and walked out and I looked at her and I said that's a kid. And she goes yes, we are a pediatric rehab center. And I'm thinking, ok, all right. And at this point all I'm thinking to myself is this is research based intervention, this is going to work. I'm going to go in on the research. 

Speaker 2: I went in and I sat down with this little kid. So he's sitting across from me, his OT is sitting behind him, his speech pathologist is sitting behind him, his dad is sitting behind me And I do the first trick and I get nothing. This kid doesn't laugh, he doesn't smile, he does nothing, absolutely nothing. He looks at me and he starts to lean very slowly towards me, like coming straight at me to his nose, almost touch my nose, and then he just stopped and he went back and he sat down and I thought, what was that? And of course in my mind I'm thinking this is why I don't work with children. But I sit down and thought OK, so I go to reach for the second trick. And this little boy goes wait, can you teach me that? Yes, so I gave him a piece of rope and he started asking me questions Where do I put my hands? How do I cross my arms? And through all of these questions he learned this trick. We probably worked on it four or five minutes. 

Speaker 2: He learned the trick. You make a knot appear on the rope And now he's making this knot appear in all these different places on the rope and he's laughing and he's having fun And therapeutically he's really engaged because we're using gross motor coordination and visual motor integration and all sorts of therapeutic things for this kid. So then I show him the second trick and he just starts laughing and he goes wait, i can learn. It's like absolutely. So. I give him the stuff that he needs And again he starts asking me questions How do I fold the bill? Where do I put the paper clips? He learns this trick. We play with it several times, sessions over 20 minutes. He stands up, he really awkwardly kind of slaps me a high five and he goes off with his occupational therapist. So I'm sitting there just trying to figure out what this was. What was this experience? And you know how you get like when you tune the rest of the world out when you're trying to, like, figure this out. 

Speaker 2: And as I started to become more aware of what was happening around me, in those seconds I could hear his dad behind me And his dad was crying. And I stood up and his dad grabbed me and gave me this really big hug And he said that's the first time I've ever heard my son speak. And I was floored. It was the first time I heard the word autism and it changed everything for me that day. 

Speaker 2: Of course, the kid did miraculously develop speech in that moment. He had speech. He was talking to somebody selectively mute Wasn't talking to his parents. His speech path said to me I've been working with him for 18 months. I've heard him say 10, 11 words, but I've never heard him put together sentence sentences before. Clearly he was doing that to a stuffed animal, to some imaginary friend in the backyard, somebody he was having conversation with. 

Speaker 2: But the most important thing that happened in that moment is that amazement factor, that curiosity factor. I saw this magic trick. I don't know how that works And if I want to learn it I have to engage with this guy. So he was motivated to talk to me And by talking to me he was able to learn those tricks that he could go and show to somebody else. Now I've had that same experience now probably hundreds of times with kids on the spectrum. I really no longer listen to a teacher when they say, oh, that child's nonverbal, ok, because I don't know. I don't want to put any sort of preset limitations or assumptions on anybody. I don't know what they're capable of because I'm just now meeting them. 

Speaker 2: But because of that experience with Thomas, i went back to school and got my master's in arts integration. I wanted to understand how kids with disabilities learned, what was different about this And why is it that if they're having difficulty learning in a more traditional way, why can't we not look at how the arts could be easier for them to to learn and to understand these kind of abstract concepts? So that was kind of my first foray into digging deeper into what this was all about. And then, of course, pandemic hit, and you know, when the pandemic hit my schedule had been really busy doing, doing residency works with schools and hospitals, with the presenters that I had become such good friends with over the years as a performer. Pandemic hit and I'm not traveling anymore, and so that was the perfect opportunity for me to hunker down and knock out my PhD. So that was my pandemic project was Oh, wow, i was getting on my doctorate, yeah, so I went back to school and did my PhD in education, special education Oh, good, and it's crazy. 

Speaker 2: Thank you, It's, it's. It's weird when people call me Dr Spencer, Now, like I get introduced at all these professional development things And it's like, oh and Dr Spencer, and I'm looking around like OK, who is who is? who am I? Who else am I sharing this bill with? I don't know. 

Speaker 2: When I started into this program, people said to me and edgy and education they said when you get those three letters after name, everything will be different. And I thought that is absolutely ridiculous because the work is the same. So what happens is when I got those three letters after my name, the perception of the work changed. It's so bizarre because I doubted it, I really doubted it, But it has. You know, being Dr Spencer and doing this work changes the perception in the education system because now all of a sudden, oh well, he has to know what he's talking about. Well, I knew what I was talking about before. I mean, it's my art form, I know what this does. But now I have the research and and and the letters, And so it's part of it is really exciting And part of it is incredibly disappointing. 

Speaker 1: Yeah, I hear you. That's an amazing distinction and one that's so important because it makes you realize how much we miss out on. I mean, it's great that you did it and that you sort of acquiesced. You had the time, you did it. But you know, wow right, The limiting beliefs of folks about what things should be, And I'll only listen to you if Yeah it's ridiculous. It's really ridiculous. 

Speaker 2: But you know, it's like I said, it's opened up some really amazing opportunities. I I just took a faculty position at the University of Alabama, birmingham, in their occupational therapy program. I've been working with them for years, but for years And as a research consultant. But now, all of a sudden, phd, i can come on as faculty, which is great. I'm not doesn't, my work's not really changing, it's just. You know, a lot of universities have that requirement. Yeah, i just took a position of faculty with Harvard Medical and Boston Children's Hospitals Pediatric Sedation Conference, where I teach a course on the non pharmacologic application of magic tricks and pediatric sedation outside of the operating room. So, again, all of these, right, exactly, i sit there and I go. What It's? it's because it's all sitting around that art form that I love, yeah, from that I'm really passionate about, and one that I know taps people at a really deep level Level through curiosity, and curiosity is a powerful motivator. 

Speaker 1: Yes, indeed, that was Kevin when he was five. 

Speaker 2: Yes, exactly, that's exactly. 

Speaker 1: I mean, nothing's changed. It's so funny, I think it's so amazing, to sort of recognize these things right And remember them. I mean, you know, if there was something that five year old Kevin would want to hear that he might, you know that you could tell him now that you think he might wanted to have heard. what might that be? 

Speaker 2: Oh, wow, that's a good question. You know I can't think of anything because you know I come from such my parents are absolutely amazing. They have been so supportive of everything every hair, brain, thing that all of us as children went through. They were really good about sitting down with us and asking us questions. So this is what you want to do. Okay, can you tell me why this is what you want to do? You were telling us you can't do. That Was never that. It was like okay, let's have a conversation about why you think this is important for you And then being fully supportive, even if you pursued it and you fail, being able to sit down with you when it was all done and saying, okay, so let's look at that. So why do you think that happened? Always very, very supportive and very analytical with us, and so I don't. 

Speaker 2: You know, i think magic is such a crazy thing. It's funny because when I was pursuing music obviously that nobody's going to like question pursuing music But when I was, when I started to pursue magic, people like what can you make a living doing that? And? but my mom and dad were never. They were never like that, even when I was in high school. My dad is a carpenter. Even when I was in high school I was not a sports person We were not going to. I was. 

Speaker 2: I'm a little guy. I was a littler guy when I was in high school. You know, i was freshman in high school. I was four, nine and 87 pounds. I'm not going to be on a football field. So the way that I was able to connect with my dad is we went out to his workshop and we built magic tricks And he was so supportive of being creative with me in that process. So I always felt like I had that support And, of course, friends. My friends thought it was cool. I would go watch them play football And then afterwards we would all go out to the dog and suds and I would do magic tricks. So I never felt like I wasn't a part of the group. I never felt like I was ostracized. I never felt like I was a demeaned or made fun of in any way And I always had the support of my friends and family. So, yeah, i can't think of anything that I would that I would have loved to have heard. 

Speaker 1: That's beautiful. Thank you for sharing that. It's wonderful to grow up that way. But it is interesting, when I ask that question, that it's taken in the context of that. Maybe something was wrong or that I struggle or whatever, and oh, it's going to be okay. Kevin, you know what I mean. Yeah, oh yeah, it's really funny. It's like no, there's nothing you would have wanted to hear. Okay, do you know what I mean? Do you think there's anything you would say to you now? 

Speaker 2: You know what? I had a conversation with my dad probably a couple of weeks ago. I was sharing an experience on the road and an experience that I'd had with some kids, and my dad really teared up and he looked at me and he said I'm just so proud of who you've become. 

Speaker 1: Yeah, so beautiful. 

Speaker 2: Yeah, so you know, it's amazing that any of us get to grow up and do the thing that we love, especially in the arts, and to be able to do something that I love so much and to do it in a way that makes a difference in the people's lives, in my life and the people that I have the privilege of working with, people that are often really marginalized and overlooked in our society, and I see just how absolutely amazing and funny and smart and beautiful they are, because I get to see it in a completely different way. Yeah, Absolutely. 

Speaker 1: That's amazing. I was going to ask you how do you want to be remembered? 

Speaker 2: I don't know that I've ever thought about it. I think I would like people to remember me as somebody who cared for other people, that saw the ability in everybody rather than the disability in people. I think I would like people to remember me as a person who looked for the strengths and the positives. 

Speaker 1: Absolutely. What, if anything, do people often get wrong about you. 

Speaker 2: I think, you know, as a magician, I think the first thing that they often get wrong is that they think I'm probably arrogant. Yeah, Coming from that. Yeah, Coming from that kind of magic background. As a matter of fact, one of my closest colleagues that I work with when I was still performing, she would never bring her family to see a show because she said, I don't want to destroy this image of who I know you are and then come and see you on the stage and you be this kind of swarmy guy that I don't know. And so when we announced that we were retiring the show, she thought, okay, And then she came and brought her family to the show and she goes you're the same person on the stage that you are off the stage. You know you're a little bigger on the stage, but you're the same person. It's like, yeah, I tried to tell you that, And so I think that's something that people get wrong about me is that they might think that I'm proud or arrogant. 

Speaker 2: Yeah, Yeah, I think sometimes people, because I'm in the arts, might underestimate my intellect. I think sometimes they think we only go into the arts because we can't cut it anywhere else. It's like, wait, wait, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, what? 

Speaker 1: Well, you fixed that with a PhD right. 

Speaker 2: So I think that I think those are probably the two things, yeah, and they think it makes sense, and what is your definition of living in the moment? 

Speaker 2: Oh, you know, I've thought about that too. I think that that living in the moment is about appreciating where you are and what you have right now, in this time, in this space, the people that you're connected to, what you are giving to each other, not just what you're taking, but what you're giving, what you're sharing in those moments. I think that I've thought so much about this, since you're since looking at what the name of your podcast is and everything. I think I tend to live in the moment most of the time Because it's I don't want to use the word forced, because I don't think I think it's a decision, but because of the of the population that I've spent most of my time with people with disabilities, you have to be very present, you have to be in the moment, which takes a lot of energy, as you know, with a lot of energy, it's a lot of a lot of commitment. 

Speaker 2: It's exhausting to to be in the moment with them, to be fully immersed with who they are, because when you're not, they know you're not, and when you're not, they think as I think most of us do that if this is a moment that you're not as fully immersed in as you were in other moments. This moment must be less important, less significant than those other moments, and so I think, because of the work that I do, i have a tendency to live in the moment a lot. 

Speaker 1: That makes sense. And what about? I'm so interested in the space between when you're really focused and in the moment and that made perfect sense what you said And when you step away from it and you're processing or you're done, the interaction. what's that space like? Is it a processing space where you're more in your head and and and maybe even your heart, and processing, or or are you able to actually still be in the moment? then Do you know what I mean? 

Speaker 2: So I think what I try to do with my work is I want to have these experiences due to the day. 

Speaker 2: During the day, i want to process, process them as quickly as I can at night, because I think by processing them I become more effective the next day, and I think that's that's constantly a process for me. 

Speaker 2: But I also want to process everything that I do work wise before I come home, because when I come home, this is a different being in the moment And I want to be able to step away from the work that is very consuming, that can have a tendency to be incredibly consuming. I want to be able to kind of step away from that and live in the moment of this time with my wife, this time with my family, and for me, living in that moment is crazy little things of planting flowers in my yard and looking at how beautiful they are when they grow, of being able to spend time with Cindy in a way that's as meaningful for her and is impactful for her. So being in the moment for me is constantly being aware of the blessings that I have in my life and what allows me to do this and to be grateful for those, not to look at things that I might want or things that I don't have, but to look at what I have and how happy we are and how amazing this life has been for us. 

Speaker 1: Yeah, it makes so much sense. I work on a very simple model that seems, you know, is very sort of inelegant in the words. I love words, but what I love is how inelegant these words are, and they are. I get to, and I call it choice with gratitude, choice with gratitude, and that puts you in the moment. It puts you in the moment. 

Speaker 2: That's beautiful. You're exactly right. Yeah, i get to do this. Yeah. 

Speaker 1: Because not only are you doing it, so not only are you, i choose to do this or I want to do this, i get to do this. You're doing it, but you appreciate it, and that puts you right in that spot. 

Speaker 2: Yeah, and I think what's so important for us as artists, too, is I get to do this, but I only get to do this because of the people who are willing to put their faith and trust in what this is. So, one of the things you know, i'm home for an extended time now, so one of the first things I did this morning was went through all of my stuff for the year and sent an email out to every person that I worked with and said thank you, because I get to do this, because you believe in this work and the partnership that we've been able to establish because of this, is really important to me. I get to do this because you get to do what you do, and this is definitely something that we do together. We were always booked 18 to 20 months in advance. So in 2013, we made the decision that 2015 would be the last year that we would tour with the show and we would transition into just this work with the nonprofit, and I can remember sitting down with some of our closest friends, buyers in the market, and just saying to them we don't know what this is, but 25 years ago, when I came into this market, you guys all took a chance. You took a risk on a guy you knew nothing about on the show you'd never seen. But you took a leap of faith and you said let's give this a try. I'm asking you to do that again. I don't know what this is, but now you know me And hopefully I'm not gonna let you down. So let's do this and let's figure out what this is together and how we can impact your community, not in ways that are happening on your stage, but ways that are happening off your stage, out of your building and into your community. And they did. 

Speaker 2: I think one of the things I love about my job is every week is different. I don't know. Is it gonna be education, is it gonna be healthcare, is it gonna be a combination of both? And just new kind of opportunities pop up all the time, like, what do you think? You think you could talk about this? Well, let me take a look, see. Yeah, so yeah, it's pretty beautiful that I'm constantly being stretched, which is great. I love the challenge. 

Speaker 1: Yep, yep, circling right back to that challenge. 

Speaker 2: No, it makes sense. 

Speaker 1: I love it. I can speak with you all day long. This has been such a joy. Let's do the rapid fire. So I'm gonna say what makes you and I'm gonna say an adjective, and then you can just say whatever comes to your mind. Okay, Here we go. 

Speaker 2: Sounds good. 

Speaker 1: What makes you Challenging Ha-ha? What makes you hungry? 

Speaker 2: Ha-ha-ha, ha-ha-ha, blake space there. There's a complete tape like space there. What makes me hungry Is there have to be literal hunger. 

Speaker 1: I love this. This is my trick. Which way did your head go? first To food or to To food? 

Speaker 2: Yeah, see, yeah, because we're primitive beings right. I mean come on, where are we? What do you want You? 

Speaker 1: can do both, you can do both. 

Speaker 2: My head automatically went to food. What makes me hungry? Thai food makes me hungry. I love Thai food. What makes me hungry? as a person, i think making a difference in somebody's life. 

Speaker 1: For sure. And you know, what's amazing is how the brain and you would appreciate this because you study the brain, but is, even though your gut instinct was to say Thai food, your brain, your other side of your brain, was like do not say that, do not say that, but when I give you permission, when I give you permission to make it whatever you want, you're like oh well, thai food. 

Speaker 2: Yeah, Thai food. This Thai food makes me hungry. 

Speaker 1: Isn't that funny. So that was like what do you think that value was for you? Was it like to not be misinterpreted, to not answer correctly, to not like what stopped you there, cause your brain stopped you? 

Speaker 2: It was like oh, i think it's just such a different conversation from what we've been having that my brain really had to come to a full stop and recalibrate and then start to go back again. It's like what I love it. 

Speaker 1: That's why I keep that one in there. 

Speaker 2: It's so funny. It's a good one. It's a good one. 

Speaker 1: Oh my gosh, my favorite. What makes you sad? 

Speaker 2: So that's an easy one for me. I think what makes me sad is when I see people underestimate the potential of others. 

Speaker 1: Amen. What inspires you? 

Speaker 2: People, all people. I'm inspired by what people believe, what people think how people behave, the challenges that people take on. I think I'm one of those people watcher people And I think people just inspire me. Yeah, Some people inspire me to be better, Totally. Yeah, I mean I'm trying to be more compassionate. 

Speaker 1: Yeah, and you inspire a lot of people. You know that right. 

Speaker 2: I hope so. 

Speaker 1: Yeah, is it difficult to receive that? 

Speaker 2: It's really hard. Yeah, I think it's the hardest part. It's the hardest part of my work. 

Speaker 1: Yeah, that's interesting. What frustrates you People? Yeah. 

Speaker 2: You know, I think I get frustrated with not sometimes not completing a project when I think I should, or not being able to spend time with people that I really want to spend time with. You know, I get to do a lot of things and that's pretty awesome. I think the thing that frustrates me is maybe when I don't get to do those things as effectively as I'd like to. 

Speaker 1: So really you're talking about yourself, you're really frustrating yourself. Yeah, a lot Cool. What makes you laugh? 

Speaker 2: People. It's funny how this all comes back to that. There's very few things that are manufactured that I think are funny, but I think people are hilarious. 

Speaker 1: Yeah, no, totally. What makes you angry? 

Speaker 2: You know, honestly, i can't remember the last time I was really angry. Wow, i get disappointed, but I can't remember the last time I was really angry. I don't know that I. 

Speaker 1: Interesting. 

Speaker 2: Yeah, i think maybe the last time I was really angry could have been maybe even college, and I think the thing that probably makes me get angry is when I'm accused of something that I didn't do Fair enough. I don't usually get angry. I can't remember the last time I was angry. 

Speaker 1: I find that really interesting, because it's obviously something you don't like to resonate there. Most people don't. That makes sense, but the fact that you can't even really remember it, you know, it stands out to me that you're very pragmatic, like in addition to all your creativity and all of that is, you're really able to analyze, but you're also really able to flow, and it's like a really cool marriage. So I feel like, in a way, you've been able to lead that way, and so it makes sense that the only thing that you could think of that makes you angry is when someone accuses you of something, because you know it sounds like you know that you control how you show up in the world And it's fact for you, right. 

Speaker 2: And then Yes, yes So when somebody doesn't believe it. 

Speaker 2: yeah, Like you, live by your values clearly, yes, absolutely, and so I get frustrated with that, or I can get disappointed, but I don't know that I get angry. I think what you said is probably really pretty spot on. Yeah, just kind of. You know, when we were performing, one of the things that our illusion designer used to say to us is you know, you can't worry about what other people think or what other people say, especially when you're leading the pack, because every time you stop and you look behind you, you slow yourself down. So don't look behind you, it doesn't matter what anybody thinks. And you know, even my mom and dad growing up, used to say it doesn't matter what people think. You know, if you know in your heart that what you're doing is right and it's true to yourself and true to your beliefs, then what does it matter if anybody else thinks? You just do you. 

Speaker 1: And what's something that you're looking forward to both today and then big picture. 

Speaker 2: Wow, today, looking forward to this, is going to be an easy day for me. My wife and I are going to head out and do some fun things, so I'm looking forward to just being able to spend some good quality time with her. In July, i'm heading to Uganda. We're drilling two clean water wells this summer, so I'm pretty excited about that. My wife and I have a son that's Ugandan And I get to go and spend some time with Eddie, so I'm excited about that, looking forward to that. And then, longterm, i have a really beautiful schedule for 23, 24, doing some things that I think are going to be really impactful, powerful, and so I'm really excited about what my next year looks like and what it holds. 

Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm excited What I'm going to learn from this. 

Speaker 1: Yeah, i'm excited to see as well. Kevin, i can't thank you enough for joining me today. Really, thank you, i appreciate you asking. This was fun. Yeah, no, absolutely. I have been speaking today with Dr Kevin Spencer. Thanks for listening. Stay safe and healthy, everyone, and remember to live in the moment. In music, stop time is that beautiful moment where the band is suspended in rhythmic unison, supporting the soloists to express their individuality In the moment. I encourage you to take that time and create your own rhythm. Until next time, i'm Lisa Hopkins. Thanks for listening. 

Living in the Moment With Magic
The Power of Magic and Artistry
Magic as Therapy and Connection
Magic and Autism Research
Grateful Living With Purpose
Personal Reflections on Work and Life