Director/Choreographer Susan Stroman: Dancing Through Life

Ever wonder what it takes to choreograph Broadway's biggest hits? Step into the creative world of Susan Stroman, a five-time Tony Award-winning director and choreographer. Susan joins us to share her life's work, from her recent projects like the Broadway musical New York, New York and the play POTUS or Behind Every Great Dumbass, to her future plans of authoring a book. Hear her unfiltered journey as she navigates the world of storytelling and collaboration, drawing on her rich background in English literature and her collaborations with notable directors and composers.

We'll then move through the labyrinth of Susan's artistic process and her unique way of blending research and preparation with the creative inputs of her actors. We'll discuss how her diverse range of inspirations and her flexibility with different dance styles has allowed her to create some of Broadway's most loved stories. You'll also learn how she recharges her creative batteries by immersing herself in global art experiences – a daily routine that helps keep her innovative spirit alive.

Lastly, be inspired as Susan opens up about her personal battles - her fight against COVID-19 and the challenges she faced creating a show in the aftermath of 9/11. Listen to her touching reflections on the highs and lows of her career, including her bold decision to knock on the doors of renowned composers Kander and Ebb. Learn how being present, listening, and pursuing her dreams with determination and resilience paved her way to become one of Broadway's most respected figures. Don't miss out on this captivating episode!

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:01

This is the Stop Time podcast. I'm your host, lisa Hopkins, and I'm here to engage you in thought-provoking, motivational conversations around practicing the art of living in the moment. I'm a certified life coach and I'm excited to dig deep and offer insights into embracing who we are and where we are at. It is such a great honor to be sitting down with my next guest. She is truly a pioneer, a visionary of our time.

Speaker 1: 0:32

She is a five-time Tony Award-winning director and choreographer, most known for Crazy4U, contact, the Scott Spurrow Boys and the producers. Her work has been honored with Olivier Dramadesque, outer Critics Circle, lucille Lortel and a record six Astaire Awards. She directed and choreographed the producer's winner of a record-making 12 Tony Awards, including Best Direction and Best Choreography. She co-created, directed and choreographed the Tony Award-winning musical Contact for Lincoln Center, which was honored with a 2003 Emmy Award for Live from Lincoln Center, and directed and choreographed the critically acclaimed musical Scott Spurrow Boys on Broadway and in the West End, where it was honored with the Evening Standard Award for Best Musical. She most recently directed although maybe it's not even recent because she moves fast, but last time I heard she most recently directed and choreographed the new Broadway musical New York, new York and she directed the Broadway play POTUS or Behind Every Great Dumbass, or Seven Women trying to keep them alive.

Speaker 1: 1:35

She is the recipient of the George Abbott Award for Lifetime Achievement in the American Theater and an inductee of the Theater Hall of Fame in New York City. I really could not be more thrilled to say that she is here with me taking some time out on stop time. Everybody, this is Susan Strowman. Welcome, susan.

Speaker 2: 1:55

Thank you. I am so honored to be here. Thank you for thinking of me. Thank you.

Speaker 1: 2:00

Absolutely. I have so much to ask you and I'm just so interested in checking in with you and where you're at in your trajectory, where you're at today, where you're at in your life. I spent the afternoon just reveling in your work, in your work. Just watch it. I mean, I know your work, but you know.

Speaker 2: 2:21

Oh, thank you.

Speaker 1: 2:22

I love your website. By the way, it's pretty new right.

Speaker 2: 2:25

Yes, created during the pandemic. There you go, it's awesome. Thank you so much. Thank you. Well, I'm not on social media, but I thought I should at least have a present. So during the pandemic I connected with a wonderful fellow named Tony Howell and he helped me put that website together and he did a beautiful job and it makes me very happy that it's there and people young people connect to it. You know who are thinking of being a director and choreographer, so I love that they go on that site and read some of the history. It's wonderful.

Speaker 1: 3:02

Yeah, I mean it's a real treasure trove. I mean I could have you know, wild away more hours doing it, to be honest, and I will go back. I mean you spent what I love and I wanted to ask you I'm like is there a book on the horizon? Because those little things, that where you are adding, are wonderful.

Speaker 2: 3:20

Well, thank you. Yes, I think there is a book on the horizon, and I thought this would be a good way to start it if I wrote a little essay about each show. And so I have, you know, two essays. I have the one for the website and then the one for the book. That's a bit juicier, but you know. So, absolutely, there's something on the way.

Speaker 1: 3:39

Oh, absolutely, yeah, I mean there's got to be. It's so exciting and it's funny. I'm going to jump in just for a second and I heard you say I should have a website. Talk to me about why I mean. I know what you mean, but I'd love to hear why it was important for you to have a presence.

Speaker 2: 3:54

Well, I it seems that if people want to find you now, they will only find you on social media, and I, but I just didn't want to be on Instagram or Facebook, but I thought if I at least had a presence through the website then people could connect and find my agent or my lawyer or something like that. And because I I wanted to make sure that that people understood who I was and where I was coming from and what the history of all the things I have done.

Speaker 2: 4:32

But it will be right there to read rather than having to find it in some book, various books. It would be all right there for them and it's worked out especially for students, and I think it was. In the end, it was a very good thing to do during the pandemic.

Speaker 1: 4:50

Yeah, what a project, right. So it's quite an undertaking. Yeah, oh, that's, that's amazing. So I, you know I get the impression that you don't like to slow down very much. Is that a true statement?

Speaker 2: 5:01

Well, I listen, I love what I do, I and I I feel quite lucky that I get to do what I love. But I love telling stories, I love working with actors, I love collaborating with composers and lyricists and writers, and you know, I, where we're speaking now is in my office and I would have to say that every week, you know, two or three sets of writers come through here that we're constantly working on stories together. So it is very much a part of me and I do love it and I've always loved it, ever since I was a little girl, loved telling stories. And so, yeah, slowing down, I, I, I do not slow down, I do not, I just keep going. I think you know it's, it's such a part of me that if I finish one project, I want to start something else the next day.

Speaker 1: 5:56

Yeah, no, that makes a lot of sense.

Speaker 2: 5:58

Yeah, I thrive on it.

Speaker 1: 6:00

Yeah, I love it. So where do I begin? What? What do people not ask you? Like? You talk to a lot of people, right, and there's so much material. It's really interesting because in my show I'm really interested in the human right. But when I come to you and part of it's my bias because I'm a dancer, so so I'm, you know, I'm going to be going, oh God, I want to ask. I just want to go there, I want to get in it with her, which which I may allow myself to do, but but on the other hand, I'm just curious to like what's something that that you get asked all the time and what's something that you kind of wish someone might actually take interest in.

Speaker 2: 6:41

Well, I think I believe people don't really know how, how it happens, how shows come to be, and for me it comes in various forms. Either someone could hand you a screenplay that they want to make into a musical, or a novel that they want to make into a musical, or or you want to collaborate with a particular group of people that you just sit there and toss ideas back and forth until you come up with something, and so the way things come to be is very different than you know normal situation. And the thing is you, you work on these shows sometimes five years, 10 years, before you know, for free, before they ever come to fruition, you know. So this is something you just do because you love it, kind of like a potter, you just keep going and I hope somebody buys your wares at the end of it. But we it takes a long time to create some of these shows and and and. Now it seems to take longer just because of the plight of the business. But another way for example, the show Contact up at Lincoln Center that ran for about three and a half years.

Speaker 2: 8:06

Up there I happened to be in a club at one in the morning down on Hudson and Hubert and everybody every good New Yorker was wearing black. And then in walked a girl in a yellow dress and I watched her step forward when she wanted to dance with a man and then retreat back when she was done with him. And it happened all night and I got obsessed watching her and I thought, well, she's going to change some man's life tonight. And then about two weeks later Andre Bishop at Lincoln Center called me and asked to meet with me and he said if you have an idea, we will help you develop it. And it was very much in my hand about that vision I had seen. So I called my good friend John Wyman and we started to talk about what that story might be about this girl in the yellow dress, and I took it back up to Andre Bishop and and contact was born, you know. So that really just came out of a vision, yeah, imagining what, what this girl's life was like, and timing right.

Speaker 1: 9:16

I mean timing and timing.

Speaker 2: 9:18

Absolutely, Whereas someone like Mel Brooks brought a screenplay of his wonderful award-winning producers screenplay and you know everything is is a little different about how, how it comes to be, you know, yeah.

Speaker 1: 9:38

And it's really interesting with you in this, my senses, you know what? There was a quote that I came up across in in our research where you said I quote, you said it's interesting how one's career is like a line of stepping stones over a raging creek. Each stone is another experience that just makes you stronger, for for when you reach the next stone, right, yeah, and it stood out to me because, from an outsider's point of view, it seems like and I'm guessing this probably isn't true because you lived it but it seems like you know you got your shot, maybe somewhere right. You can sort of discover that, and I love your timeline too, which is really fun to look at. And then it just kind of kept going stone to stone to stone. But I'm really curious about, like, what was on the river banks. That's that maybe you know you follow the path, but there's also, you know, the river bank. Are you the river? Are you the? Are you talk to me?

Speaker 2: 10:33

Well, I think it's. It's true that no matter what, what, what you have, what show you've you've created, whether that show was a financial success or not, I always feel that the show is an artistic success for you personally and you, you take that that show, whatever the next one is, whatever that next stone is, there's something you have learned from that show that you can apply to the next one, and you keep applying it and applying it as you go on, things that work, things that didn't. And you know, I I grew up in in Delaware, but I was very lucky that my I had. I grew up in a house filled with music. My father was a wonderful piano player and and he also told big fish stories. You know I to this day I do not know if they are true, but so I had that combination of storytelling and music and constant music in the house. So it was very much a part of me, that kind of celebration of music and celebration of storytelling. So it seemed quite natural that this would be where I was starting, on the bank of the river. And then now I'm going to step on this first stone and see if this works and see if I can make it and keep going and keep balancing on these stones and but I, you know, I always take that.

Speaker 2: 12:04

What happened as a child? You know that kind of music inside of me and you know I still apply it. You know I know when, when Woody Allen came to me about doing bullets of Broadway and wanted to use a score that took place in the 20s, I knew every song he could possibly talk about. Because of my father, because I grew up with knowing all those songs, I would be great on name that tune you know. So it's interesting how that childhood has now just kept coming along with me with every, every single show.

Speaker 1: 12:42

Yeah, it really is. Do you believe in destiny? Do you think you were destined to be born to do what you're doing?

Speaker 2: 12:49

Well, in a way destined, and again, I have to say lucky, because I do love it and I know how fortunate I am. I do know how fortunate I am to love what I do. Yeah and so, but yes, I think the other thing I have to say is that when I was a kid, I would visualize music, and I still do to this day, no matter what what's playing, whether it's it could be rock and roll, it could be an old standard, it could be classical, it could be Gershwin, it could be whatever, but I imagine people's dancing costumes, everything in my head. So I have, I visualize music, and always have, and so I think, had I not gone into the theater, I probably just would have gone crazy or something. But that's what I do hear music and I do imagine these setups and these scenes.

Speaker 1: 13:44

Yeah.

Speaker 2: 13:45

And I wonder where they ultimately end up for anything or not, but it is there.

Speaker 1: 13:50

Do you? I'm curious because there's different people, have different processes and I know that, like, some people are like to be very like they can see it all and they put it all together and then get in the rehearsal studio and then they just get it out right and much more time it takes, but they, it's pretty clear what they want. You know, with some changes obviously along the way. Or are you more of a sort of you kind of have an inherent innate knowing, maybe an essence or a phrase or just something that maybe you can't put into words yet, but a knowing, let's call it and enough. Maybe and again, I say a phrase, because often I know and dance, sometimes we can just you get you kind of get the tone right. You kind of know where you're going and what you're trying to say, and then do you are you more of that person? And then go in and then you really work in the collaboration and then open out so that you can then grow it with your people. Or how do you work there?

Speaker 2: 14:45

So I do. I have to say, before I go into a rehearsal room with actors, I do a lot of research on the time period, geographical area, everything, the composer, whatever. I do a lot of research and that helps to inform me of what's to be, what kind of choreography, what kind of blocking, and also research on the particular characters, because characters dance and move differently altogether. Max Bielostok dances very differently from Leo Bloom, and all of that is brought to mind. But what I do is I really work a lot of it out before I go into rehearsal. But then I am inspired by actors and I allow them to be very much a part of the creation, and it's almost by doing so much prep for it. You build a net, if you will, so you couldn't. Everybody can fall into it if they want, and it's allowing the actors to create and feel spontaneous, but also protecting them at the same time. So it is a lot of homework, but then there's a lot of freedom when I get into the studio.

Speaker 1: 16:06

And do you think that's changed as you went along? Because as a sort of as a young artist, as a young director, choreographer, I'm guessing there's a different stake at hand. There's a burden of proof, you don't have the body of work. So was your process different then? I'm just curious, was it any different?

Speaker 2: 16:28

No, I think I always had a feel for collaboration, about what it takes. I mean, there's no art form like the musical theater. What is a true collaboration with your designers, with your actors, with your composers and I was very lucky to, my very first professional job was with Candor Nebb and they really understand about collaboration and they, you know, just being around them was a great learning experience and ultimately, you know, they became very good friends and the very first thing I did with them was at the Vineyard Theater. My choreographed a version of Floor, the Red Menace for the Vineyard, and then and then was part of creating and the world goes round, the Off-Broadway show, then went on to create Steel Pier and then ultimately, the Scottsboro Boys and then, most recently, new York, new York. So that's a good example of wanting just to create with someone.

Speaker 2: 17:33

Now, what could we do? You know, when we were working on the Scottsboro Boys, it was mainly to be in a room together. That's how it started. But then the idea came up of what if we did a true story? Something was based in reality, because a lot of times in the musical theater you're in a more fantastical world. And we did a lot of research on the American Trials and of course the Scottsboro Boys was one of the most famous. So that's how that show came to be really.

Speaker 2: 18:07

But I always feel I had a knack for collaboration. But then of course I was really taught by Candor Nebb and the other thing. Of course I started as a choreographer, but I the directors that I worked with, were Mike Ockbrent and Trevor Nunn and Nick Heidner and Hal Prince. So you know, I was very lucky that those were the directors and learn a great deal from them. You know, by the time I was working with them they were famous pros and, you know, learned a great deal, so that that by the time I crossed over to wear both hats, you know I felt like I had a great education.

Speaker 1: 18:58

Yeah, you have a degree in English too, don't you? I do have a degree in English.

Speaker 2: 19:02

Yes, very good. Yes, I know from the University of Delaware. Absolutely, that's interesting.

Speaker 1: 19:08

Yeah, so did you. Did you? Was that important to you to have a degree before you went to New York?

Speaker 2: 19:14

Well, yes, it was. It was important to finish school. I love school, and you know, and I loved the English department too. I loved the literature, you know. I loved, of course, once more storytelling, you know. So, learning all about the classics and yeah, yeah it's. You know, an English major can do a lot of things, you know, to satellite off of that to many, many different careers, but of course, I was able to apply it to the theater.

Speaker 1: 19:46

Yeah, no for sure. I mean, I think that's a wonderful basis, isn't it?

Speaker 2: 19:51

It is.

Speaker 1: 19:51

It's really rich. I'm curious to know, as I'm sure everybody is, you know, when we hear these stories they sound, I guess I want, I want to know where the gap and you know, if you want to call it a gap maybe where the stones were wider apart, maybe where you knew you were standing on the edge of the river, you know, like so. So I'm imagining you at school, at university, let's go back even a little bit further, like where, where did you transition into kind of knowing that you were going to follow this and eventually maybe go to New York? Was there kind of an aha moment Did you? You know, did you do shows in your driveway when you were a kid? You know, I totally did. I'm just curious, like can you remember the earliest moment of kind of you know, the stirring of? You know I want to do this, I want to create stuff.

Speaker 2: 20:44

Well, I did a lot of community theater in Delaware and then the Philadelphia area. So then that my you know, teenage years and my college years, I was always doing shows. And then, while it's kind of like in my last year of college towards the end, there there were, I had a friend that wanted to go to New York and audition for the Good Speed Opera House, and so and they said, why don't you come along? And so I went up and I auditioned for the Good Speed Opera House. I wasn't even quite sure what I was doing because it was, you know, it was just so professional. There were like 400 dancers in the room but they ended up picking two non-equity people and I was one of them. And all of a sudden I, you know, had to go back home and you know, tell my mother and father, I had something called an equity card and I had to sell my car and move to New York. You know, but, but, and that was it. You know, I, I from from there, you know I never stopped really. But I have to say I always wanted even though I came to New York as a song and dance scout, it was really I always wanted to create. So. But I knew I couldn't just come to New York and say I'm going to direct and I'm going to choreograph. You know I could never do that. But I was able to make a living singing and dancing. But it was always to cross over, always.

Speaker 2: 22:15

And it was that, taking that chance, I was doing a Broadway show that lasted a week on Broadway called Musical Chairs and I was with Scott Ellis and we were outside lamenting about it that he wanted to be a director. And you know we both wanted to be on the other side of the table and Scott had done the rink with Candor Nebb and I had done Chicago with Candor Nebb and we thought what if we knocked on their door and said can we take floor of the Red Menace off Broadway and do a new version in the form of the WPA Theater? And you know I tell young people too today that you know you should always ask the question, because the worst thing that happened is someone says no. And we went and knocked on Candor Nebb's door thinking they were going to say no, but in fact they said yes. Well, and you know we went down to the Vineyard Theater and we said, can we do this here? And they gave us the time and the space and we did it. I think we made, you know, $200 for the whole summer and you know but Scott Ellis and I never went back on stage again That- was it?

Speaker 1: 23:25

That's amazing. That's really really interesting. Do you still believe that today? Do you think that it's? I mean, is that a limiting belief? I know that that is a it's understood when we're in, when we're, you know, coming up to the theater, that usually if you want to go there, you go through the show, you become an assistant and there's kind of a you know a protocol of doing that. Do you still believe that that's the case, like if someone came to you and said, with no experience, and said you know, I'm really interested in directing and choreographing, well, I don't know, talk to me about. Do you still think that?

Speaker 2: 23:57

No, it's you know, the thing is, yeah, we can't wait for the phone to ring. You have to go out and create it yourself. And that is indeed what I did to create it yourself. And if you believe that you can create, then you need to go make it happen. And the other thing for today too, it's like our good friend Lynn Manuel says you need to be in the room where it happens. So if there is the opportunity for you to be in the room to observe, then you should do it. I know that my union has a wonderful kind of observation where young people go and get to follow directors around and choreographers around, and a lot of them have gone on to greatness. So just really listen. It's a miracle. A musical gets up. It is a miracle.

Speaker 1: 24:51

Yeah, okay.

Speaker 2: 24:52

And all the different departments and the finances that go with it, and then your storytelling, and so having a young person be able to witness that Because I think they've grown up just doing the occasional revival in their high school they'll see what it takes to put on a new show.

Speaker 1: 25:14

Yeah, no for sure. What's your favorite part? I mean, I can understand how, once the show is moving forward and it's been green-lighted and stuff and it's happening that there's that whole thing. But what talk to me about the creative thing before that, like when you don't know, and maybe you haven't had this in a while. But do you remember a time when you had an idea? I guess the Candor and Eb one, right, the restaging of that was one Did you have an idea that came to you much like the contact, the girl in the yellow dress, but that you didn't really have anywhere to put it? You know what I mean. Or maybe there's still some in you, maybe some of these things have come to you and you're thinking, ooh, that's something.

Speaker 2: 25:53

Well, sure, all the time I had two writers here today where we're creating a piece and it's finding the space to put it in. But you go through a long process because once you create it here in the office or with each other, then you have to get a reading together to hear it read, which when then it changes again because you've heard it read by actors. And then you can do a workshop to put it up on a speed and then you have to try to get investors and people interested in producers, and it is a long process. And then there's not that many theaters in New York, there's only a handful that you have to make sure that you're doing something that that particular theater owner would take to, which is different from off Broadway and Broadway. And there are theaters here that take chances, but it's only a handful that take chances.

Speaker 1: 26:51

Yeah, what would you say is your favorite? I mean, you do such a diversity of things and I can see you I mean, I can see your signature through all of it for sure. But I'm just curious to know is it, is it the diversity of what you do that you like, or would you focus more on one area? What is it that thrills you about, excites you about doing stuff?

Speaker 2: 27:11

You know it's doing different. You know in the end it is about whatever that story is that interests me, but you know to be able to do something about that, you know the main focus is ballet or the main focus is tap or jazz or whatever you know to to make it. You know it's it always is to service the story. You know I have a show with Lynn Arons and Stephen Flaherty called Little Dancer and it's based on de Gaulle's Little Dancer, a 14th famous sculpture. So within that we do you know classical ballet, you know good old musical theater dance and but it's, you know it's definitely a theater piece but within that it has the ballet where something like you know bullets over Broadway has tap dancing and you know very rhythmic and 20s dancing and again, it always you know it really where the show takes place, the story takes place.

Speaker 2: 28:17

You know the contact with swing dancing because it was always about, always about making contact and the dance for that is swing dancing. And you know even something like the Oklahoma I did with Trevor Nunn. You know the dancing was based on fighting for territory, so the dancing was very fight oriented. The women were pioneer women and with mud on their skirts, which very different from the original, and I loved it, and so it it just love that I can listen. There's nothing greater to me than being in the back of a theater and seeing how a show that you've created affects an audience. Whether it's something like Crazy for you, where you could see that put their arms around each other, or something like the producers whether you're laughing hysterically, you know or something like the Scotsboro Boys, which hits them hard into conversation, you know or it's just how the different, you know, stories that I get to tell are diverse, but so I never I never go out seeking for that same kind of story. I always want a different, different kind of story all the time.

Speaker 1: 29:35

Yeah, no, that makes sense. I'm curious to know if I mean Crazy, for you is just so powerfully strong, and I mean I mean all of it right, just your choreography is just so brilliant, but it's not all of who you are, and yet it really does capture a lot of who you are right, like really a lot, and and I. But I am curious though, because you know the the sort of non-efficient auto might look at it and go, ok, she's the tap dancing one, she's the one right, did you ever get pigeonholed into that? Because you're so not just the tap dancing one.

Speaker 2: 30:06

Well, I think probably at the beginning of Crazy for you really was a huge you know hit that came on strong here and I think probably it had a lot of tap dancing in it, but it had a lot of humor in it too.

Speaker 2: 30:18

And I think that's, you know, very much a part of me, and and how did that happen? Not only in seam work, but in choreography and in music. And so I think perhaps at the beginning, yes, I think people did think that, but then, you know, I would be able to go on for two other pieces and and create other, other types of of work.

Speaker 2: 30:41

And you know, recently, you know, I did the wonderful Coleman Domingo play Dot down at the Vineyard and that was a very humorous.

Speaker 2: 30:52

Humorous play but it was also very serious about Alzheimer's and explaining to the audience what that is about, but doing it with a very humorous family that lived in Philadelphia and how they're able to cope with it.

Speaker 2: 31:08

And I loved the Coleman's play and I love being able to, you know, be able to be very much a part of that. Whereas something like POTUS, which I did on Broadway last year or two years ago it was a play by Selena Filger that has seven women, all very funny women, but it is about you know what happens when someone in power, some man in power, gets out of hand and does something wrong and then, if you are a woman underneath of him, you think am I going to save him or am I going to? What am I going to do? Am I going to be complacent and just get through this, or and so it? It really hit home and and as something that was very, very relevant, you know, up for now. So you know that that one was very political, you know it's, it's, it's. I'm again feel very, quite lucky to tell all these different types of stories.

Speaker 1: 32:10

Yeah, no, absolutely. How do you? How do you recharge?

Speaker 2: 32:17

Well, I recharge, let's see. Well, I, I I spend a lot of time in museums you know, and they are very inspiring, you know.

Speaker 2: 32:28

You know all of them. I mean, we're very lucky to live in a city that is filled with the best, but but I and I do travel. I love to travel and when I travel I go to those museums and see the best art in the world that I can see, you know. And I do read. I love reading novels, you know stories, and so that that recharges me because it inspires me.

Speaker 1: 32:52

Yeah, yeah, this is so interesting to me. So on a daily basis, like when you wake up in the morning, do you have? Are you kind of a routine oriented person, or does it depend on what the day is going to be?

Speaker 2: 33:05

Oh, it depends on what the day is going to be, because I do use every ounce of the day. So, sometimes it is having breakfast with somebody or a collaborator before I go to auditions or rehearsal or meeting, and then I do go out. I go out every night to see a show, some type of show. Wow, whether it could be the ballet, it could be the opera, it could be.

Speaker 1: 33:31

Yeah, there's no lack of things to do. Yeah, so I get this feeling it's funny because you're so open and generous and brilliant. No, but it's interesting because I'm getting the sense that you have a very, very full and colorful and wonderful, diverse life and career, and I'm really interested in space. Just okay, we'll talk choreography. Just like in choreography, if you fill everything with steps and don't have any stop time or any dynamics, then it makes everything feel like this. And even though you're saying to me no, every day is filled, is filled, is filled, where is the nuance for you? I know it's there. I'm not implying that it's not there, but are there moments where you step outside of yourself and you go this is me, is there? I'm just so curious to know when you're not. I don't want to say busy, because it's not really busy. I mean it is busy, but you know what I'm saying, right, because they're all things you're choosing to do.

Speaker 2: 34:44

Well, I like If you were asking me what, besides going to museums and conversation with friends, conversation with collaborators I love conversation, I love having dinners with people and just talking. I love that art of conversation, I love it. And to do it with different types of people, I love it. And then to be in New York City, to have at your fingertips the central park, all the wonderful things and beauty of central park, and then it's all these new places that have popped up like a cent yard but like the most beautiful memorial in the world, at the World Trade Center, the seaport, the I mean everything. There's so many beautiful places in New York City. That fills me too. I really use New York City, yeah.

Speaker 1: 35:43

Yeah, so much has shifted in our world in these past three years, right? Yes, I'm just curious to know what has shifted for you, or what, maybe anything that you've learned about yourself during this time of massive change, right?

Speaker 2: 36:00

Yes, well, I think it's all good, though, to be quite honest, yeah.

Speaker 2: 36:07

And just trying to be a part of stepping aside at some times and letting people go forward and being a part of reaching out where you might not have reached out before and working with people that you haven't worked with before, working with brand new teams and brand new associates and brand new assistants, and all that is good. All that is wonderful, and I'm very strong in my union, at the Directors and Choreographers Union, so very much a part of change in that and being a leader in that change. So I think it's all fantastic, to be quite honest, and the thing is, the material that we get to now relish in the different plays, the different musicals, the different actors it's all great, everything about it is great, very exciting, yeah yeah.

Speaker 1: 37:12

Did you learn anything about yourself? I know you had COVID. Right, you got COVID. Oh my God, I'm so sorry.

Speaker 2: 37:20

We shut down on March 12th and then I got COVID very bad on March 15th. Oh man, yes, it was very bad and it was scary because I wasn't vaccinated, certainly, and no one really knew what was going on. And New York really got hit. We live in extremes here in New York City. We really got hit. So it was very scary but I got through it and in fact I was on the phone with a doctor saying let's try to not keep you out of the hospital. There's a lot of times if you went in you didn't come back out.

Speaker 1: 38:01

I know yeah.

Speaker 2: 38:03

So it all worked out in the end, but it was a scary time, the beginning of that pandemic.

Speaker 1: 38:09

Yeah, no kidding.

Speaker 2: 38:10

Yeah, I couldn't boil an egg before the pandemic and I learned that during the pandemic At a necessity. But then I thought, oh well, this is going to be very artful. I'm turning this into an art piece, absolutely, and every night do something different and read the recipes and see what I could do. But besides the website, the cooking happened during the pandemic, which was a good thing. That's cool. Is it continuing? Do you still, once New York opened up, forget about it?

Speaker 1: 38:44

Yeah, Now you don't have time to eat. No.

Speaker 2: 38:47

No Restaurants and ordering. You know ordering in.

Speaker 1: 38:51

You're so funny, so you have so many strengths. What would you say is your Achilles heel?

Speaker 2: 38:58

Oh my gosh, Never having enough time, thinking, you know, I don't know, just yeah, well, I feel I want to do so much all the time and I think I get. I get to press if I run out of time or can't accomplish something in that amount of time, you know. So I think that that is a silly thing to have, but I but it does. I just think that days get. I just wish there were more hours in the day for me.

Speaker 1: 39:30

If there were, what would you add more? Or would you just have more time to do the things that you're doing?

Speaker 2: 39:36

Yeah, more time to do the things I'm doing For sure, so interesting.

Speaker 1: 39:40

What would you? What would you say is your definition, or do you have one of living in the moment?

Speaker 2: 39:48

Oh, definitely being present. I mean, you know, I think, as a director too, you have to be very present in, in dealing with your actors and and you know, listen, some actors are, you know, very quick to pick things up, some are not. You have to recognize right away what everyone's process is and being present for them and being there for them. So I feel like I really make a conscious choice to be present in everything and and listening, you know, I think that's the other thing for a director. Really listening to people is important, but that goes back to that. You know, dinners with lots of people talking and chatting and conversation is very much a part of listening. But, yeah, being present is really, really important and being there for people is very important.

Speaker 1: 40:45

What was the hardest thing you've ever done?

Speaker 2: 40:49

Oh, the hardest. Well, the hardest thing, the hardest show that I ever did was a show called thou shalt not that I created with David Thompson and Harry Connick and but we were in tech and the towers fell and it was a very difficult time. You know the stage hands. I wanted to go down to the World Trade Center and people were very afraid that it was wasn't going to stop and it was just a terrible time. And to try to rally people together, to try to rally actors, to try to rally crew to keep going Was the hardest thing I've ever gone through. And the show itself was not a jolly show, you know. It didn't have any redeeming characters. So to do a dark story about murder and corruption, yeah, I was very difficult. It ended up was on a limited run because it was under Lincoln Center's umbrella and it ran its limited run, but. But that was a very, very hard time for all of us and because there's so much sadness.

Speaker 1: 42:07

Yeah.

Speaker 2: 42:08

And so much sadness. You know, at New York City at that time usually when you're grieving you know you can go to someone to help you with it. But everyone was grieving, everyone in New York was grieving. So there was, it was a relentless feeling of grief. So to you know, put on a show, it was very hard. But you know we had to remember that. You know what had happened that day. They wanted to break our spirit. They really wanted to break our spirit and take us down and and to keep going. But whatever you do or whatever your passion is, to keep going, you know, is to spit in their eye, you know so. So having to dig that up for everybody was very hard.

Speaker 1: 42:58

Yeah, no, kidding right. What would you say is the easiest thing you've ever done?

Speaker 2: 43:05

The easiest thing. I don't know about that. For me those are harder, right? Yeah, yeah, you don't remember the easy one.

Speaker 1: 43:15

No, you don't. And it's so interesting. Yeah, and you know, it could be even an easy decision. Maybe that's easier. Maybe it's the easiest decision you've ever made, I don't know.

Speaker 2: 43:25

Well, I guess it was to knock on Candor and Ebbs door so long ago and and decide to take that chance. And then, you know, that was it, my, my career was cemented.

Speaker 1: 43:41

Yeah, you obviously grew up probably I know you did with the knock, knock, knock. Gotta dance, good, good.

Speaker 2: 43:49

So you're like that's how you do it, right, still doing it. Actually, I'm still doing it, exactly. Yeah, I just. I just wrote a letter to a producer. You must go saying, hey, I got a show. Can I come and pitch this for you?

Speaker 1: 44:02

If you do, I'm still doing it.

Speaker 2: 44:03

I'm still doing it.

Speaker 1: 44:04

That's amazing. What, what big, audacious goal or dream do you have, maybe, that you haven't put out in the universe yet, and maybe it's not creative? I mean, you know, maybe it is, but maybe it's not even outside of that world. I'm just curious. There's something that maybe you've thought about that.

Speaker 2: 44:23

Well, you know, there's there. I do love to travel, so there are many places I want to go and I do quite that out there, I do. You know, I think traveling and and being a part of other cultures only makes you smarter and stronger and and it really does inform your work. So I think traveling is a dream. Just keep going to different places, you know. And as far as as creating, you know, I, I, I do love the theater and the ballet and opera, and but I, I think it's still more of that, more of the live arts, more that, more so than film, and you know, television, I, you know I had some ideas for things to possibly produce, film wise and television wise, but as far as directing and choreographing, I want to do that live, you know, yeah.

Speaker 1: 45:26

Yeah, I enjoyed reading your little blurb about working on. You've got mail right and how you're doing.

Speaker 2: 45:35

I know that was amazing. I had, you know, they ended up cutting the character, the total character was gone, and but nor a front gave me a wonderful disc of all the dances and they, you know, whatever they did a focus group. They only wanted to see Tom Hanks and beg Ryan. They didn't want to hear from another secondary character or her boyfriend, and that's what I was choreographing, all of that. But you know, it was a great experience, a great experience and you know a definite show biz story. You know, whereas all the the choreographer I did in the movie center stage has become like you know they're, they're even doing like a rocky horror show, that movie, they have young dancers, you know, in a theater. You know, calling out the lines from center oh, that's funny, oh, that's a bit. All the others, a spectrum of a choreography on film, that that's. That's lasted through many generations, that that movie.

Speaker 1: 46:35

Oh, that's pretty cool. That's fun. What do you know will stay true about you, no matter what happens.

Speaker 2: 46:44

You know, I feel like I am loyal, you know, to people and you know people underrate kindness and I think kindness is a big deal in our business and I think how it's very important to be kind and that you should skew that way, no matter what happens, and I think that's a big part of me that I would love to you know teach other people, because I think people don't think that's important Sometimes.

Speaker 1: 47:21

Yeah, or they forget or they forget. Yes, yeah, yeah, that's beautiful. I love that. How do you want to be remembered?

Speaker 2: 47:30

You know, I guess this, you know, I think someone probably who loved to laugh to you know, loved to dance and, and you know, love joy and wanted to impart joy on others, and doing that through the theater and storytelling. So I think, you know, that's very much a part of me trying to live in a joyous place.

Speaker 1: 48:05

Yeah, well, you, I mean you exude it Definitely. Hey, do you dance in your living room and you're like where's your favorite place to sort of pull around and dance?

Speaker 2: 48:15

Yeah, I have a space over here that you know I work out and mostly work out.

Speaker 2: 48:19

But you know I dance over there Now, a man at age where working out is the big deal, you know, or you won't be able to open that pickle jar, you know so. So I do work out. You know I work out twice a week with, with weights and. But you know, no, I still dance, of course, especially when I'm trying to create something. And also, you know, I have to clean. You know wonderful music and dance and clean at the same time. Much better than dance as you clean.

Speaker 1: 48:50

Absolutely, absolutely. Oh my gosh. All right, just a couple more things. I could speak with you all evening, but I do want to be respectful of your time. Oh, can you finish this phrase? Most people think Susan Strowman is, but the truth is.

Speaker 2: 49:07

Oh, I can't. I can't because I don't know what people think, I don't know.

Speaker 1: 49:12

That's true, so no one ever gets anything wrong about you.

Speaker 2: 49:16

Um well, I think you know, as a woman, people get a lot of things wrong about you. You know. I think, uh sure go. You know, moving up the ladder here as a woman is people get a lot of things wrong about you, thinking that you can't do something cause you're a woman. You know, I started in a very male dominated field. It's only really been in like the last 15 years that all of a sudden women have appeared and it's. It's been a long time coming, but I think that's. I think people got a lot of wrong about me, thinking as a woman I couldn't do something. But I'm not alone in that. I mean, every woman went through that, you know, and I think women are criticized more than men in any field. You know, certainly politics you know, I mean get more so.

Speaker 2: 50:10

So it is the plight of women that people take a long time to realize that you can do anything. Yeah, long time.

Speaker 1: 50:20

What stands out to me in sort of that context that's amazing in your life is how Mel Brooks knew that you could direct, right, and just said no, come and direct. And it's interesting because he's you know, he's a lot older, right, so he comes from a very old school thinking, but he clearly does not have that thinking. I mean how fortunate you were to have him to see you.

Speaker 2: 50:41

Yeah, he know, and he and Mel had seen some of my work before, you know, because he loves the musical. When you think about all his movies, he takes a nod to the musical theater in every movie he's ever done, true, so, yeah, I mean he was, I tell you, respectful at every move with me. It was really amazing he's. He's an extraordinary person, an extraordinary human being.

Speaker 1: 51:06

Yeah, no, clearly, and talk about you know people that you think about that just make you smile, right?

Speaker 2: 51:12

Yes, that's for sure.

Speaker 1: 51:15

Yeah, no no, he's a force. All right, let me. So we're going to do just a little. I'm going to say what makes you and I'm going to say a word, and then you can just say whatever comes to mind. It doesn't have to be fast we call it rapid fire, but it really doesn't need to be. So I'm going to. Are you, are you game?

Speaker 2: 51:34

All right.

Speaker 1: 51:37

What makes you hungry?

Speaker 2: 51:40

Oh, everything I mean. I love to eat, but what makes me hungry is the smell of breakfast, like eggs and bacon, and I love breakfast, so that makes me hungry.

Speaker 1: 51:50

You're talking about food. Yeah, what makes you sad?

Speaker 2: 51:54

Oh, I'm with injustice. You know, watching the news in the morning, you know any kind of injustice or bullying or anything, someone doing something wrong to somebody else. That makes me very, very sad.

Speaker 1: 52:14

Yeah.

Speaker 2: 52:15

What inspires?

Speaker 1: 52:16

you.

Speaker 2: 52:18

Art inspires me, you know, and all sorts of art, whether it's Impressionists or Modern Art. I'm very inspired by art.

Speaker 1: 52:28

Why art? Maybe you have art on your walls somewhere else, but I don't see any art on your walls.

Speaker 2: 52:34

Well, it's interesting because this is my office and I do have I do have a beautiful light over there by an artist named Leo Villarreal, which is beautiful, but there are no, and I'll you know, in a Rob Winn piece here, but I don't have any show posters or anything. It's a very clear, clean space and so when I work down here in the office and have meetings down here there's you know, you're not staring at some show poster and thinking what happened?

Speaker 2: 53:05

there what went wrong. You know why. You're trying to create something new, so it's a very, very clean space.

Speaker 1: 53:10

Yeah, that's, cool Blackslight, right yeah.

Speaker 2: 53:12

Yeah.

Speaker 1: 53:13

Oh, that's brilliant. I love that. What frustrates you?

Speaker 2: 53:18

Oh, I suppose other folks not not doing their job around you. So you know, some people kept it's frustrating if I don't think they're going beyond the call of duty. Really, you know, I'm in this business because I have a passion for it and I kind of want everybody else to have the same passion.

Speaker 1: 53:42

Fair enough, fair enough, yeah, what? What makes you laugh?

Speaker 2: 53:48

Yeah, you know, everybody makes me laugh Mel Brooks makes me laugh, larry David, woody Allen, you know Nathan Lane, matthew Broderick, you know I, you know Brooks Sashmans, because I mean, I mean just to have so many people around me that make me laugh, and I do love to laugh, I do so, you know I'm I'm working on a new musical now called Smash, and the book writers are Rick Ellis and Bob Martin and they are funny and the book is funny. So right now, every time they call me, I just say hello, we start laughing because I don't know Funny. So I, a lot of things makes me laugh, a lot of. I'm just laughing all the time, that's that's great.

Speaker 1: 54:34

That's amazing. What makes you angry?

Speaker 2: 54:40

Well, you know, I think maybe if, if you've trusted someone or dep, or depended on someone's truthfulness or honesty and and you realize that you've been duped in some way, that that makes me angry. That's sad you know, but that kind of disappointment in someone you know that that you thought was a friend or was a colleague, or was telling you the truth about something.

Speaker 1: 55:19

Yeah, that's interesting. I'm curious to know do you get? Do you get angry at yourself for not having seen that, or you just? You know what I mean. Like sometimes we place a lot of faith in people.

Speaker 2: 55:30

Yeah, yeah, sure you, because that you didn't see it coming. Oh yeah, then you get angry at yourself.

Speaker 1: 55:38

Yeah, Right, Then you're like what the yeah so interesting. Finally, what makes you grateful?

Speaker 2: 55:45

Oh, I am, I am grateful. I have to say this past Thanksgiving I was grateful for many things, but I'm very grateful for my friends and my family and I am grateful to all my collaborators and I am grateful for art and grateful for music and grateful for dance, and I, I am grateful. I feel it every day. I do feel it every day. It died and I think about it a lot.

Speaker 1: 56:14

I do think about it a lot. I love that. And if grateful were a dance, does it? Does it present itself in different tempos at different times? Would?

Speaker 2: 56:22

you say yeah, I mean yes because you know part of what I do also is when I choreograph his work with the arranger and, and you know, manipulate the time signature, you know elicit and emotion, and so you know that kind of just being able to dance joy. I'm very grateful for that and to elicit joy. And again, you know for I was very lucky to remount Crazy Few recently in London there's a dance there called Shall we Dance and you know it's just two people and they have to be very in sync and but at the end when they hit that button and that audience applause, it's, it's. It's so thrilling for me and I'm very grateful about it that it exists and I can make an audience that happy.

Speaker 1: 57:22

Yeah, no kidding, I'm so curious. It just came to me as a as a last minute question. When you, when you came to New York, did you? Did you train with anyone in particular, or were you already trained and you came and you just started learning on the job in terms of, you know, really focusing your craft?

Speaker 2: 57:37

Yes, Well, you know, I trained in Delaware with James Jamison and, and, but when I came to New York, I I studied with Luigi I was a Fenty Gallia Luigi and Henry LeTang.

Speaker 1: 57:50

Oh my God. Okay, that makes sense now.

Speaker 2: 57:52

I know Henry.

Speaker 1: 57:53

I knew Henry and and worked with him, and Philip Black was my guy.

Speaker 2: 57:57

But, but, but yeah, but those were my two main but that makes sense.

Speaker 1: 58:02

The Henry LeTang thing especially makes sense because when I, when I see your tapping and I hear you talk about you know, Dave Brubeck and being in the pocket and working with the ballet dancers and all those things, I mean you know, I have a very, I have a very strong rhythm tap background myself and so I was so curious I was like where, I wonder where that was coming from. Yeah, yeah, that makes sense, that makes. Do you read music?

Speaker 2: 58:28

Yes, yeah, I took, I took piano and guitar and all of it when I was younger. I mean, I didn't keep it up, I didn't keep it up, but you learned it, yeah, oh yeah, so it's like you speak the language, which is, which is fantastic.

Speaker 1: 58:40

That's amazing, very cool. What are the top three things that have happened so far today?

Speaker 2: 58:46

Ah, that happened today. Yeah, yes, I had breakfast with a movie star, I can't say who that's nice. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then I had auditions for Smash and we got some beautiful people for Smash, and then I and I worked with two new writers on a new project right before I clicked on to you. So it was a full day of of a wonderfulness.

Speaker 1: 59:15

And what's something that you're looking forward to, both today for the rest of your day and I know it's evening for you and then also, you know, meta, like in big, big, big term, what are you looking forward to?

Speaker 2: 59:27

Yeah, I think I'm looking forward to more of the same really. That I again to say it's that I love what I do and I just want to go forward in doing it and and and meeting other people, meeting new people to collaborate with, and I do look forward to that.

Speaker 1: 59:45

Yeah, just seeing what unfolds, right.

Speaker 2: 59:47

Yes.

Speaker 1: 59:48

That's amazing, Susan. I so appreciate you spending the time with me today.

Speaker 2: 59:54

It was fun. It was fun, you had great questions, thank you.

Speaker 1: 59:57

Oh, you're welcome. No, listen, it's been a real pleasure. I've been speaking today with Susan Stroman. I'm Lisa Hopkins. Thanks so much for listening. Stay safe and healthy, everyone, and remember to live in the moment. In music, stop time is that beautiful moment where the band is suspended in rhythmic unison, supporting the soloists to express their individuality In the moment. I encourage you to take that time and create your own rhythm. Until next time, I'm Lisa Hopkins. Thanks for listening.