Carmel Dean: Listening To Her Instincts

Let's journey together into the bright lights and booming music of Broadway, as we sit down with award-winning composer, lyricist, and multi-hyphenate, Carmel Dean. From her humble beginnings in Australia to the bustling streets of New York, Carmel takes us on an exploration of the beautiful and challenging world of theatre, where she found her calling in music directing and composition. She bares her heart about her transformative move to America and the courageous decision to divorce, revealing how these pivotal moments shaped her into a more resilient individual.

Carmel’s candid conversation will strike a chord as she navigates through the highs and lows that come with working in the theatre industry. She opens up about her fight for self-belief, her strategies to manage anxiety and depression, and her tenacious pursuit of the artistic 'high' she first experienced in high school. But it's not all about the stage. Carmel also welcomes us into her new venture, Places Please Travel for Theater Lovers, a travel business that offers her a sense of autonomy rarely found in the world of Broadway.

In the final act of our chat, Carmel hints towards the future while pausing to appreciate the present. She reflects on her journey so far, her classical training, and the exhilaration of creating her own artistic blueprint. Balancing personal life with a demanding career, her story offers a heartfelt perspective on embracing challenges and finding your rhythm in life. So tune in and let Carmel's symphony of experiences inspire you to live your own life to the fullest.

Follow Carmel Here:
https://carmeldean.com/
@carmiedean

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Chapters

• 0:24 Broadway Composer's Challenges and Journey
• 8:44 Finding Highs in the Theater Industry
• 16:46 Busy Composer Overcoming Self-Doubt
• 26:32 Reflection on Life and Self Improvement
• 40:47 Embracing Perfectionism and Future Goals
• 50:29 Power of Music, Living in Moment

Transcript

Lisa Hopkins: 0:24

This is the Stop Time podcast. I'm your host, lisa Hopkins, and I'm here to engage you in thought-provoking, motivational conversations around practicing the art of living in the moment. I'm a certified life coach and I'm excited to dig deep and offer insights into embracing who we are and where we are at. My next guest is an award-winning composer, lyricist and Broadway music department multi-hyphenate. Her compositional debut, renaissance, was produced in New York in 2018, and subsequently won the Off-Broadway Alliance Award for Best New Musical. Her song cycle about fierce, funny and game-changing historical women well-behaved women premiered at Joe's Pub in January 2020, and has gone on to receive rave reviews for its productions in Sydney, australia and multiple regional theaters across the US. Current compositions include Maiden Voyage, which was commissioned for Newark's province town and on Cedar Street I believe she's working there today. We'll find out a little bit more about that which is receiving its yes world premiere at Berkshire Theatre Festival this summer, as in right now.

Lisa Hopkins: 1:35

As a Broadway musical director, supervisor and or arranger, her credits include the current revival of Funny Girl starring Lee Michelle if then starring Idina Menzel, American Idiot Hands on a Hard Body and the 25th annual Putnam County Spelling Bee. Upcoming Broadway projects include the notebook, with the score by Ingrid Michelson, which premiered at Chicago Shakespeare Theatre in the fall of 2022. She was and this is pretty cool vocal arranger for Jam Band Fish and Trey Anastasio at Madison Square Garden, las Vegas and Chicago's Wrigley Field. She was performer with Green Day on the 52nd Annual Grammy Awards and is former musical director for Broadway legend Cheetah Rivera. Born and raised in Perth, australia, and currently residing in New York City, she also just happens to be, in her spare time, a Fulbright Scholar. She holds an MFA from New York University's Graduate Musical Theatre Writing Program and is a current member of the BMI Lehman Angle Musical Workshop. I am so, so excited for this conversation and the opportunity to sit down with Carmel Dean. Welcome, Carmel.

Carmel Dean: 2:44

Thanks, Lisa. I feel like our time must be up. That bio was so long

Lisa Hopkins: 2:50

In fact, you know what. There's a thing called tall poppy syndrome, is there not?

Carmel Dean: 2:54

Tell me about it. We could do some editing of that bio. Thank you for having me!

Lisa Hopkins: 3:01

Oh, it's my pleasure. Do you identify with that or do you want to speak a little bit about that? I'm curious.

Carmel Dean: 3:05

Sure, look, I left Australia when I was 22. I didn't spend a ton of time as a quote unquote adult working in the industry. I basically had a year, after I finished my undergrad in Australia, of working in Sydney, and then I moved over here. So I honestly never felt much of the tall poppy syndrome myself, although I am certainly aware of it. I think how it's played out for me and I talk about this with all of my Australian friends, especially the ones who've moved over here is that we do have this inherent modesty and humility, and I think obviously it's related to the tall poppy syndrome of not wanting to to your own horn or not wanting to appear egotistical because you don't want to stand out, whereas one of the great things about Americans as a whole, and especially in New York, you just have to fight for yourself. If you're not fighting for yourself, no one else will. So that's something a lot of Aussies and I talk about having to shed and retrain ourselves when we come to New York, especially in this industry.

Lisa Hopkins: 4:26

Yeah, I know that makes a lot of sense. It's interesting. It makes me think about one of the questions I asked you in the questionnaire. I asked you what, if anything, do you think stands between you and who you want to be? And you had answered people's knowledge and understanding of my skill and abilities. Now that's really interesting. That kind of speaks to what you were just saying. Tell me more about that.

Carmel Dean: 4:45

Yeah, I feel like I'm still working through that as a very present challenge. Obviously, I've had this very fortunate and blessed career in the industry thus far, but I really want people to know my work as a composer, and the first show I did was Renaissance in 2018, and people came up to me and they're like oh my God, I had no idea you could write. And I said, well, I've been telling you I can write for years. I've been asking for opportunities to write for years and the big lesson is that you always have to show. You can't just tell. At least it's my experience. So I'm still in that place of feeling like I have to show and prove myself as a writer, and prove to people that I'm not just a good conductor or music director or arranger, but I can come up with music and I'd like to be hired to write my own stuff rather than work on other people's stuff.

Lisa Hopkins: 5:57

Absolutely, and is that how you began? I mean, was that your vision when you came to America or when you started in music?

Carmel Dean: 6:03

Well, it's funny, I started at NYU in 2001 in the New York University Musical Theater Writing Program. It's a graduate program at Tisch, which is a program for composers and lyricists and book writers, and that was my. I mean, obviously I wanted to be in graduate school and be learning skills, but I also was very much wanting to just figure out how to get my foot in the door in New York City. So I used grad school as an opportunity to meet people and network and learn what I could, not just about writing, but also as a music director. So I was very much focused on my MDing path, even though studying composition. So it wasn't until the 2010s, I guess, that my focus started to shift and I thought wait a minute. I came here to write, I know I can write. How do I forge this new path while still keeping the path that I'm on active?

Lisa Hopkins: 7:11

Yeah, 100%, and, as we all know, the MDing is probably a more regular gig. It's something that builds.

Carmel Dean: 7:19

Yeah, it's more of a rather unquar real job yeah exactly. Yeah, you can get a weekly salary if we're doing it. You certainly don't get a weekly salary as a writer, so it's a very different lifestyle within the industry.

Lisa Hopkins: 7:34

Yeah, for sure it's interesting. Do you ever think about what stands between you and the opportunity to do that? Because there are gatekeepers, there are certain things. What challenges do you face?

Carmel Dean: 7:45

Well, I think for a long time I felt like, as a woman, I wasn't being taken seriously, and I felt like that as a music director too.

Carmel Dean: 7:53

I mean, for years I was very often the only female in the room, the only female at the table, and feeling like I had to apologize for myself and not feeling like I was standing on equal footing.

Carmel Dean: 8:08

I think what's amazing about these last few years is that everything's shifting and people are asking questions and opening doors and are a lot more aware of opportunities that haven't been given, and so now it's great to be a part of that conversation and to be able to take advantage of that, but it's also just such a tough industry to be a part of, and that's regardless of any of the barriers that exist. I mean, what is the Actors' Equity statistic? I don't know. There's like 5%. Only 5% of its members are working at any one point, and I don't know if there is a statistic that exists for writers, but it's got to be less than 5%. I think of the writers who are floating around New York City, so that's a barrier in and of itself. It's not an industry where you graduate and you get hired to work in low-level banking position and work your way up through finance. There's no equivalent.

Lisa Hopkins: 9:20

Totally so. What is it that keeps you doing it? Oh gosh.

Carmel Dean: 9:27

I feel like we most of us in this biz we keep doing it because we're chasing the high that we got the very first time we did it. I don't know if that's true for you, I don't know. I've mentioned that to be like right, right, remember that when you fell in love with musicals? Yeah, for me it was being in a show in high school and then I did community theater and you were just obsessed, and like you're obsessed with everyone, I know your best friends, and you just couldn't wait to get out of school and get to rehearsal. And you know the show closes after four performances and you're devastated and you know it's that high that I think you know that that never goes away and you're looking for that experience.

Carmel Dean: 10:15

Obviously it's never going to be the same experience. It's different and obviously you grow when you have a life as an adult and so it's not, it's not the all consuming thing that it was then, but I think that's why I do it. And then you have these incredible experiences where you're like, oh yes, that's it, that's it, that's why I do it. You know people got my song, or you know people loved seeing this show that I conducted, or you know I think I wrote something that really spoke to someone, and it's it's those moments.

Lisa Hopkins: 10:50

Yeah, that's really interesting. Thanks for sharing that. I think that's that's very cool. I hear you, it's interesting because you know the chasing, the feeling, right, it's, it's, it's. I guess in a way, if I'm hearing you correctly, it keeps you going because you keep remembering that, if you keep doing it, that the highs are they kind of supersede the lows, right? Yeah?

Carmel Dean: 11:16

Yeah, because, I mean, life gets in the way and this is a really, really hard business. It's a really hard industry. So I think if you just focused on all of the hard bits, you wouldn't keep doing it.

Lisa Hopkins: 11:28

No, absolutely. They're not no, and it was great. It was great to hear, hear your energy kind of shift. But I said, well, why, why do you do it and you're going? It sounds like you've asked yourself that before.

Carmel Dean: 11:41

Oh yeah All the time that's funny.

Lisa Hopkins: 11:44

It's a little bit like I don't know if you have children or not, but it's a little bit about you know the pain of childbirth. Right, you know you forget I do not have children.

Carmel Dean: 11:51

But yeah, the pain of writing a song, I would imagine, is kind of similar. It's the same, oh God, it's. It's like why? Why am I doing this? Why am I putting myself through this? Surely there's something easier I can do in the world. And then you write a song. You're like, oh my God, I made a song. Yeah, there was never something there before.

Lisa Hopkins: 12:07

Yeah, yeah, and then the song takes on a life of its own, sometimes that you don't realize like you were saying, like you could be somewhere and feeling you know maybe not, as in one of those highs, and someone comes along and says they were moved by your song and you go, wait what? It's still out there like making connections. That's pretty cool.

Carmel Dean: 12:26

That's pretty cool.

Lisa Hopkins: 12:27

Do you think there's anything else that could give you that same thing? Like if you couldn't do music, if you couldn't do musical theater?

Carmel Dean: 12:36

It's really interesting that you ask, because I've been thinking about this a lot in the last three months, because I actually started a small business in April this year, the very end of April. It's a travel business. It's actually called Places Please Travel for Theater Lovers Perfect. I'm sort of merging my to my two passions theater and travel. But for the first month or so I was like this is amazing, like I'm in control of my own destiny, I'm making money on my own, I'm not waiting for a producer to call and tell me the schedule and that we have a theater, and like I feel autonomous for the first time. And this is, you know, this is great. This is something that I've really craved and been wanting for years now that you just don't have. You don't have that kind of control in the theater industry. But then I went to see Parade and I was like oh God, I'm never going to have that feeling working as a travel advisor.

Carmel Dean: 13:38

You know it's like and I thought, oh, it made me want to be a part of that show or creating something that had that effect on the audience. You know, as many great boxes as being a travel advisor ticks, which I'm finding really necessary for me. There are those boxes that another job will probably never tick and that's that. It's chasing the high. That's what it is.

Lisa Hopkins: 14:09

But what's super cool about that I don't know if you see it, but I'm hearing it loud and clear is that you can absolutely have both, and that together they really make the whole thing a beautiful thing.

Carmel Dean: 14:20

Yeah, well, that's what I'm trying to figure out. Like you know, as I said, it's only a few months old, so who knows if it's going to grow and expand and how much of my time I'll need to get, because I started this when I was in between gigs. So I hadn't worked on any theater stuff since February and I was going out of my mind. So I thought, well, this is the time to start a business. But now my theater work is picking up again. So these next few months, next 18 months really, which is, you know, I'm looking at my calendar and I have things in the theater world planned for the next 18 months. I don't want to shut this business down because it's just getting going. So I think it'll be a really good test for me. You know, I think you're right. Like, hopefully it will give me a more well rounded experience in life. I just hope I can pull off doing two things at once.

Lisa Hopkins: 15:14

Oh, absolutely, you can Thank you. You know, that's your brain coming in saying oh, you know, and with all these limiting beliefs that we have to write in here all the time, and if you do that then you're not really focusing on theater. I mean, you know, blah, blah, blah.

Carmel Dean: 15:31

Yeah, yeah, so true.

Lisa Hopkins: 15:33

It's so true.

Carmel Dean: 15:34

And as artists, how often are we working on multiple projects at the same time? So I think I have to think about it like that you know you're prepping for one show. While you're in a show you're doing double duty. You know, if you're lucky to have two things at the same time, You're always prepping for something, or interviewing something, or auditioning for something.

Lisa Hopkins: 15:52

Well, yeah, and the beauty of the thing, too, that the way you described it, is that it fulfills another aspect of you that you don't get in your passion project, right, yeah, so, so what's beautiful about that is this will actually fuel that, so it won't be like another thing you're doing, like another show, right? It's something that actually, you know, takes a different aspect of you that's so true. And that's beautiful. So you're gonna, you're gonna be surprised. I think you're gonna find they feed each other. Thank you, Thank you.

Carmel Dean: 16:22

I'm really hoping so. And there's also the part of this the travel business that honestly, I'm living vicariously through my clients. Booking hotels for someone in three different Scandinavian countries Like this is so great. I feel like I'm in Norway with them. That's fun, that's really fun.

Lisa Hopkins: 16:39

Well, definitely put the link in the in the podcast too. Oh, we can check it out. That's super cool. Yeah, no, that's super cool. Can you paint a picture, maybe, of what your days are like? Well, right now, just give us a picture of where you are right now. You said you've got a lot ahead of you. You're working on a show on the Berkshire. That's right, right.

Carmel Dean: 16:56

I'm in the Berkshire, so just started week two of rehearsals for a show called on Cedar street and and you know it's where I want to say we're in the early days, except for basically halfway through it, because I think we start previews in two weeks.

Lisa Hopkins: 17:15

It's a very short rehearsal.

Carmel Dean: 17:18

It's a very small scale show and it's a small theater, so this feels expedited in a way. I'm used to working on shows that take a little longer to get up, so I'm kind of loving that there's going to be a faster payoff and at the same time, slightly terrified because we don't have time to put in changes and this is the very first time it's been in front of an audience. So, yeah, I'm in rehearsals 10 to six every day. This shows pretty special for several reasons, but one one being that this was Lucy Simons last show that she was working on and she became ill and her collaborator collaborators Susan Bergenhead and Emily Mann reached out to me and asked if I would want to come and work with Lucy and end up co-composing the score. And that's exactly what happened. I worked with Lucy for a few months over Zoom and then I took over when she passed at the end of last year, and so her spirit is very much a huge part of this show and this process.

Carmel Dean: 18:26

So I'm acting as the composer. I am the composer, but also acting on behalf of a composer who's not here. So I'm in rehearsal every day and making changes. If changes need to be made, nothing huge because, like I said, we don't have time for big changes, but at the same time I'm coming home, my lunch break and booking hotels for people and organizing I love it, europe. I've just finished recording my well-behaved women album, so doing some you know last minute stuff for that and then prepping for another notebook workshop that we have coming up in a couple of weeks. So, luckily, I like being busy.

Lisa Hopkins: 19:12

Absolutely. Do you find that the worries fall away when you're busy, or do they make? Does it make you more anxious? So tell me what your experience is.

Carmel Dean: 19:22

That's really good. Well, you know, I actually have been diagnosed with depression and anxiety in the past, and what I have noticed is that I am much happier ie less depressed when I am busy. The anxiety, on the other hand, that wakes me up at three o'clock almost every night. It doesn't really matter if I'm busy or if I'm idle. You know, my brain always finds something that I need to be worrying about, but it just means that I need to be really organized and I need to keep on top of all of these different tasks that I'm juggling. And I also know that things like exercise and diet really help my depression and anxiety too. So, yeah, right now I'm in a fine place with it Because, like I said, I'm happy to be busy. I'm really happy that this is only the second show I've written that's going to be in front of an audience too. So that's, you know, that feels like the thing that's keeping me going and keeping me excited more than anything else.

Lisa Hopkins: 20:33

Yeah, absolutely. Excitement seems to be a thing for you which is interesting. I'm sort of hearing another right Like you talked about it as being you know why, you do it right, you get this and that you're. Now you're talking about it as kind of a bomb, let's say, for your anxiety. Would that be fair to say?

Carmel Dean: 20:54

Yeah, for sure.

Carmel Dean: 20:55

That's interesting and I do feel like there's an excitement for me that comes with knowing the thing you're working on is going to be in front of an audience. Yeah, that's that. That's maybe the drive, the performer's drive, even though I'm not a performer, but you know just wanting the audience and that's what we do. We work in live theater. So I haven't done anything since the notebook last year it was almost a year ago that had an audience. So that's why I think I'm excited to be sharing my work and sharing Lucy's work and being a part of this thing that's going to have an audience in a couple of weeks.

Lisa Hopkins: 21:36

Yeah, absolutely. So what were you like? I don't know why this question is popping into my head, but what were you like as a child?

Carmel Dean: 21:48

I was very ambitious and I was pretty nerdy, but I was also the class clown. So I think that sort of stopped me being a victim of any bullying or teasing or anything, because I, you know, I think it was pretty quick with cracking jokes and keeping people amused. But, yeah, as always, the music node always, always, always. I started playing piano when I was three, so I think that was just part of my, it's been part of my life. You know, people would always I'm sure people who I haven't seen in 30 years would probably still say, oh yeah, come on, she was the one who played piano. So, yeah, just always. Yeah, I was always doing something.

Carmel Dean: 22:33

I was very busy as a kid. I was not someone who would sit around watching TV or just like hanging out doing nothing. I mean, I loved, obviously, like watching TV and reading books and that kind of thing, but no, I was always doing all the extra, whatever extracurricular activity was available. I was there Always. I was ballet, I was doing speech and drama, I was doing netball, I was doing swimming, I was doing theater. I was just doing whatever I could.

Lisa Hopkins: 23:03

And so, three years old, you were playing the piano. When were you first introduced to the piano? How did that come about?

Carmel Dean: 23:09

Well, it's funny because I don't even remember, but my mom says that we had a piano in my house and my parents were very musical and very cultured and they were always listening to classical music and jazz and going to the ballet. So apparently I asked if I could have piano lessons. So three and a half I started piano lessons. Folklore says yes, that's the word on the street.

Lisa Hopkins: 23:38

I love that you'll take it. That's a good story, right.

Carmel Dean: 23:40

Yeah, well, there are some videos of me. Okay, three years old. So yeah, that's improved, yeah.

Lisa Hopkins: 23:47

That's amazing. So is there something that you, if you, could tell you know three year old Carmel that you think she might have wanted to hear what? What might that be?

Carmel Dean: 24:02

God, I always. That's, that's the question that always tears me up, or that issue. You know, when you see a movie with all older people talking to the younger selves, I just find that so emotional and so beautiful. Okay, I think, honestly, I was a pretty happy kid. I didn't have. You know, surprisingly, I didn't have a lot of anxieties or worries as a kid. I think I did get excited about things, and so I think I would have told myself like just to keep to keep moving forward, and that you know that I would be happy as a grown up. Yeah, I think that's pretty lucky as a kid that I didn't. I was pretty satisfied, yeah, yeah, I'll probably think of something better.

Lisa Hopkins: 24:54

No, it's great.

Carmel Dean: 24:55

And it's always interesting.

Lisa Hopkins: 24:57

It's interesting too, that you know. I don't mean to imply that there was there was something wrong.

Carmel Dean: 25:02

You know that you, oh, yeah, yeah.

Lisa Hopkins: 25:04

In fact, let me, let me flip the question. Is there something that younger Carmel might tell you now, present day, that would be helpful, or that you'd like to hear?

Carmel Dean: 25:15

Yes, absolutely, and that one that's an easy question like you can trust yourself, trust the knowledge that you have, trust the skill that you have been building since the age of three, trust that you know what you're doing, because my 20s and early mid 30s even so full of self-doubt in this business. Now I think one of the greatest things about getting older I'm about to turn 45, is that I have so much more self-confidence. I feel like God. I remember getting on production calls on shows when I was in my 20s and just feeling like, oh my God, I have to say the right thing. Everyone's judging me. Younger karma would say be easier on yourself.

Lisa Hopkins: 26:10

That's brilliant.

Carmel Dean: 26:10

I love that.

Lisa Hopkins: 26:12

I love that you said trust too, because that was something that I had written down I was going to ask you how this trust show up for you. But I think you just answered that question. Yeah, I love that. I hope that you do listen to that voice.

Carmel Dean: 26:25

Yeah, yeah, I think I do now. I do now. It's a relief. Yeah, yeah, it is. But at the same time I'm able to look at my body of work. I guess over the last 15, 20 years and also the training that I put in I was putting in piano contests. My whole childhood I have put in the work. So obviously the older you get, the more experience you have and you feel like you can justify feeling more confident. But thank God that it's going in that direction and you know.

Lisa Hopkins: 26:58

Well, confidence is a result, isn't it? Everybody always thinks you need to be more confident. Well, confidence is a result yeah. Yeah, for sure.

Carmel Dean: 27:05

For sure.

Lisa Hopkins: 27:07

What's your definition of living in the moment?

Carmel Dean: 27:12

It's being aware of your situation and your surroundings and your feelings and letting that sink in and just being present to that very moment and which is in context of your entire experience. Right, it's like, oh, this is the moment I'm sitting on a Zoom call with Lisa Hopkins, getting to talk about feelings and work and career and being a human. That's really special. Like tomorrow I'm going to be back in rehearsal writing out an underscore for something, and those are long days of doing very similar things, but being in this moment right now, it's a gift to be aware of that.

Lisa Hopkins: 28:07

I love that. That's beautiful. How often are you able to sort of get yourself into that zone?

Carmel Dean: 28:17

I think I can do it quite often actually, and that's, I think, because I'm getting older and I'm just aware of you know, we have to be present, of the present moment. We have to be aware of the present moment. You know, when you're young, you just sort of like I said I was busy all the time and then, you know, I came to New York and I was hustling and I was running from one job to the next and meeting people and doing this, and I think, you know, getting older you slow down and I think one of the gifts of that is just thinking, is taking stock and being grateful for opportunities that you've had and for where you are. And I feel like all the time I'm like I'm so lucky, I just feel so I'm so grateful that I'm in New York doing the thing that I wanted to do 25 years ago and I had that little idea like, oh, maybe you could go to New York and work in musical theater and that's what I'm doing. So I'm very aware of that. I'm very, very grateful for that.

Lisa Hopkins: 29:33

That's pretty cool. What was the easiest decision you ever made?

Carmel Dean: 29:41

I mean, the first thing that comes to mind is moving to America, it's moving to the States. It didn't even feel like a decision, just like something that happened. I guess maybe that's the definition of an easy decision that it doesn't feel like a decision. I got this opportunity, I won a scholarship and it was a no brainer. It wasn't like, oh God, am I leaving my family forever? Am I packing up everything I own? I didn't even think about what it meant, except that I knew I had to do it.

Lisa Hopkins: 30:17

It was an absolute no brainer. That's amazing. Did you ever look back, or was it always looking forward from that moment?

Carmel Dean: 30:23

Well, that's interesting, because what is looking back? I mean, I constantly, constantly think about what my life would have been like if I had not moved to America. What would my career have looked like in a very different country? And, being close to my parents and my siblings and now my nieces and nephews, I think about that all the time but never, ever, regret that decision that I made to come over here. But, yeah, definitely will always be curious about what my life would have looked like as a sliding doors kind of moment.

Lisa Hopkins: 31:04

Yeah, no, for sure. That's cool. What's the hardest decision you've ever made?

Carmel Dean: 31:15

Well, I got divorced. That was hard. That was like my hardest life thing for sure, yeah, and that's, you know, it was very. It was a very, very the hardest emotional time I've ever experienced in my whole life. And I was. I was my late 30s, early 40s and I'm like, oh my God, I think I've dodged all of the hard, the hard bits up until now because I've never felt this kind of deep, well of emotion before. Yeah, but you know, now I'm on the other side of it and you know, I feel happier and more grounded than I've ever been. So, you know, I think one doesn't come without the other.

Lisa Hopkins: 32:05

Yeah, absolutely. That's amazing, isn't it? And that's the type of thing that you know when you're in it. It's funny because when, when something is that sort of impactful or, you know, prevalent in your life, something that heavy, that serious, they really that actually puts you in the moment, doesn't it? I mean, it really is very narrow focus.

Carmel Dean: 32:27

Oh God, yes, yeah, everything else just went away, like I couldn't focus, I couldn't think about anything else, I just like felt like the bottom, you know, the bottom dropped out, yep.

Lisa Hopkins: 32:39

And let alone thinking about where you are now. What's on the other side? Yeah, yeah. Amazing, isn't it? Yeah, really is. It's a great thing to to remember that for yourself too, because you can really mind strength, that's right, but you know what I mean. But for about yourself, from 100%.

Carmel Dean: 32:56

Yeah, you're like, oh my God, I've ruined my life. I will never feel better about myself. You know, I've. That's it. You know, I just thought it was like the end of the road. And now I look back and like, oh, that that experience has made me a better human, for sure. Yeah, sure.

Lisa Hopkins: 33:14

Absolutely, that's amazing.

Carmel Dean: 33:16

Well rounded person, for sure, for sure Can you share.

Lisa Hopkins: 33:20

would you be willing to share just one thing that that one aspect of you that you feel is a better human because of it? Yeah, more resilient?

Carmel Dean: 33:28

Yeah, for sure, that's cool.

Lisa Hopkins: 33:31

Yeah.

Carmel Dean: 33:33

And just knowing that you know nothing is Nothing is forever, as in like the pain I was in, yeah, thought it was going to be forever but no, it wasn't forever. Yeah, it's amazing.

Lisa Hopkins: 33:49

As it opened up that, like your creative well as a composer, oh for sure, yeah.

Carmel Dean: 33:57

For sure. I think that's that's. That's a great thing. I think that's a great thing Not in the sense that I've gone on to write a musical about, you know, a 40 year old lesbian from Perth getting divorced, like that's not. I'm not. I'm not writing any kind of autobiographical thing yet, but I think just in terms of knowing or having access to different feelings and different experiences.

Lisa Hopkins: 34:23

Honestly, yeah, no kidding. Yeah, I think that's a great thing.

Carmel Dean: 34:30

I would like to think it's my goofy sense of humor. I'm pretty goofy, that's cool. My girlfriend will constantly point out I'm like, are you so sick of this? And she's like no, it's delightful. So I've got just embraced. I'm just embracing that. That's my MO.

Lisa Hopkins: 34:51

That's beautiful, I love that, and it brings joy to others. So I mean hell, why not right?

Carmel Dean: 34:57

Yeah, so yeah, it brings joy to others. But I think it really just makes me happy. If I can crack a joke, then I will, or if I, I always I actually joke with my girlfriend that I see a four year old on the street and I'm like, oh my people. So I just relate to little kids and I think I'm young at heart, so I hope that I always hang on to that.

Lisa Hopkins: 35:23

And how do you want to be remembered?

Carmel Dean: 35:28

I think, as someone who makes others feel good about themselves, whether it's through being with them in person or through my art, through my writing, or through the shows that I've done, where I've worked with people or cast albums that I've worked on yeah, just that I've I'd like to think that I've left something behind, something positive behind.

Lisa Hopkins: 36:03

Yeah, no, absolutely. What's something that maybe you don't want people to know about you?

Carmel Dean: 36:11

Great question. Yeah, that's a really good question. What don't I want people to know about me? God, I honestly can't think. Maybe I don't have any secrets. Don't I want people to know about me that I'm actually a really good poker player?

Lisa Hopkins: 36:40

Don't get.

Carmel Dean: 36:41

Don't let that secret out.

Lisa Hopkins: 36:42

Don't let that out. No playing poker with Carmelty.

Carmel Dean: 36:47

Yeah, Texas Holder was my gay. Yeah, you know, it's a really good question. I'm sure something else will pop into my mind at three o'clock this morning.

Lisa Hopkins: 36:56

It absolutely will, because that's where it lives, right In your brain go oh don't don't say that.

Carmel Dean: 37:00

Don't do that, yeah, yeah, don't tell anyone.

Lisa Hopkins: 37:03

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, so interesting, that's so interesting. Well, here's a similar question, but let's see if this, if this, jogs anything. So so can you finish the phrase? Most people think Carmel is, but the truth is.

Carmel Dean: 37:24

Probably most people think Carmel is Serious, but the truth is she's a total goof.

Lisa Hopkins: 37:34

That's funny. Is it just your inner circle that knows you as your goofy yeah?

Carmel Dean: 37:38

I think so. Yeah, because you know, my job for so long has been the head of the music department. You know, the leader of a department, so I'm certainly not leading with my goofy, jokey self. You know, and especially as I was younger, I was trying to prove myself, so I wanted to seem very serious. You know not that those things can't coexist, because of course they can, and that's one of the gifts I think of being older now is that I feel like I can be, I can be more myself and do wear both hats, like I can be a good leader and also still be cracking jokes. But I think, um, yeah, yeah, I think, I think being yeah, I felt like I had to be very, very serious up until very recently.

Lisa Hopkins: 38:36

What shifted that allowed you to sort of. Let that in Um.

Carmel Dean: 38:45

I think maybe a lot of it was just self reflection and these last few years spending more time Not by myself but with, with friends rather than, you know, during the pandemic. Obviously we weren't working, we weren't in professional situations and I had an amazing pandemic, you know, I'm very fortunate to say I lived with 16 other people and I, like I became, we sort of had this whole extended family situation, so I was with people where I could be myself. I wasn't trying to wear a title, I wasn't the boss or I wasn't trying to impress colleagues. Yeah, I think that's probably what it was. That's neat, that's very cool.

Lisa Hopkins: 39:31

So do you find, now that you're kind of getting back into your work rhythm after the pandemic and after that beautiful little kind of you know beautiful situation where you could be yourself, are you finding that, as you're letting it come, come more into your work, that anything's changing in the dynamic of work for you or for others? Yeah, I do.

Carmel Dean: 39:52

I do think so actually, I think I feel more relaxed and a little more at ease. Yeah, more relaxed, but also, as we were discussing, more confident, and I think those two things go together too. You know, I feel more confident. Therefore I can be more myself, and you know, I do have this lighthearted way of you know if I'm feeling relaxed and not, you know, under the gun I'm not sure I'm not, you know, under the gun for something that that is my preferred MO is that I like to create an easy, fun environment for people to be in, whether that's as a music director, conductor or as a writer.

Lisa Hopkins: 40:40

Yeah, or travel consultant, or travel consultant, that's right. Literally yeah. What would you say is your Achilles heel, oh.

Carmel Dean: 40:53

Maybe my perfectionism, I don't know, but I also think that can be a boon. I'm a Virgo, so I'm very anal. I get bogged down in details. For example, when I am booking people's travel, I need to be on top of all the details. That's something that I do need to embrace, but I think also the perfectionist in me. I'll work on a song for an hour after I've actually finished it, just making sure that I should say notating a song, so getting all of the nuts and bolts in order and crossing every T and dotting every I. So maybe I could relax a little on that end.

Lisa Hopkins: 41:54

What do you think would be different if you did relax on that end?

Carmel Dean: 41:57

I think I'd be less stressed and I'd be probably less anxious. I think that's actually a big, those two things that linked for sure my anxiety and my perfectionism. Yeah.

Lisa Hopkins: 42:08

Makes sense. In my work, we talk a lot about how all my clients are, like yourself, very high performing, creative people, very what I call anabolic. So they're not sort of in the depths of oh my God, I really need help, so much as they are really wanting to resonate where they can be most effective so that they can make an impact in the world, and they know themselves so like you and it's.

Lisa Hopkins: 42:33

I often work with them to understand that their strengths are often where their weaknesses lie default to their strengths, yeah, and to learn how to take those strengths and understand that those strengths, because they're so strong, if you make them a tool in your toolkit, then you can open up a whole other area so that you don't have to default. You can always do that if you need to. You can always go over the notes. You can always, you know, be really, you know, articulate about stuff or whatever, but or meticulous about stuff, but you don't always have to default to that. And, man, it's scary to do that at first, but then you start to realize that you know there's this whole other world, yeah, there's freedom in that.

Lisa Hopkins: 43:20

But it's natural, right. So there's nothing wrong with you defaulting to that. Once you draw the awareness to it, then it becomes an opportunity to shift that, to understand. You know, and do this kind of work because it did work for you at some point. It absolutely did work for you, and that's why your brain is like no, no, no, we're going there because that's what you got, that's what got you here, right? And you know, I always said to my clients nah, what got you here is not going to get you where you want to go next. It's just, it's not the same thing. That's so true.

Carmel Dean: 43:52

That's so true. And yeah, I just popped into my head then was thinking about being trained as a classical musician. I was, and I was brought up on the Suzuki method, which is very regimented. You know, you've got you go through all of your books, book one through six, and then you do your exams and then you know it's all very, very much prescribed and the classical music, the goal is to play it perfectly, note for note, and obviously there's interpretation and there's artistry in it. But you have to play all the right notes. And now, as a writer, it's like well, there are no notes that I'm learning. I get to make up what those notes are, and so a lot of it is just listening to my, to my instincts as a creative and a creator and knowing that I get to make that map. Now I get to write the blueprint rather than following someone else's map. So that's a cool, that's a, I guess, a cool journey that I've been on, you know, over the last 40 years.

Lisa Hopkins: 45:04

Yeah, yeah, no, absolutely. And so where do you want to go next, Like, where do you see yourself? I don't know. 10 years from now, five years from now? If everything is going in the direction you'd like it to go.

Carmel Dean: 45:16

Funny I am. I I've said this a few times lately because some a couple of other people have asked me this and I think you know I'm getting traction as a writer, which is great. I'm very excited about this. But you know, there's, like I said, there's still people who don't know that I can write and I'm still having to prove myself.

Carmel Dean: 45:38

And there's literally only one person I know in New York who I can look up to and say I, that's the kind of career that I want, and that's Tom Kitt, because he is equal parts composer, lyricist and music supervisor, arranger, orchestrator. He's been able to forge this amazing career of going back and forth and wearing those different hats and have different creative needs fulfilled. And so I told them that the other day we were having dinner, I'm like you have this, you have my dream career. You know you're working with such amazing people on their own stuff, on their stuff, but you are also writing your own work and putting your own work into the world, and that's to me that's great. You know, I've worked with so many cool people, great artists, and I want to keep doing that and I want to put my own work into the world.

Carmel Dean: 46:35

Yeah, so, yeah, that's that's the goal and to be running a successful, successful travel business on the side. Hell yeah, why not? Yes?

Lisa Hopkins: 46:45

Why not? That's amazing. I can speak with you all day. This has been so enjoyable. I'm just going to ask you a few more things. I want to be mindful of your time. Sure, so great to reconnect with you.

Carmel Dean: 46:56

It really really is.

Lisa Hopkins: 46:57

Yeah, it really is. Let me ask you, okay, well, let's do this. So we do a little rapid fire. I'm going to say what makes you and then I'll say a word, and then you can just respond. It doesn't actually have to be rapid, it never ends up being rapid, so don't worry about it. But you know just, yeah, just, you want to play, let's play, yeah, let's play. You can be as goofy as you like, right? So what makes you hungry? Chips? No, you say chips. Do you mean french fries or do you mean potato chips? I don't know.

Carmel Dean: 47:32

I was thinking of looking at the chips in my kitchen and they're making me hungry. They're corn chips, lime flavored corn chips. I mean rapid fire. They're sitting right there. Oh yeah absolutely About every other things, but yeah.

Lisa Hopkins: 47:45

But in Australia do they call chips or chips, french fries, chips and chips. Yeah, that's yes, Okay.

Carmel Dean: 47:52

Yes, good clarification question yeah. What makes you sad Thinking about being so far from my family and my parents.

Lisa Hopkins: 48:05

What inspires you?

Carmel Dean: 48:07

Right Art, whether it's music or theater or visual art or dance.

Lisa Hopkins: 48:16

What frustrates you?

Carmel Dean: 48:21

Oh God, so many things. I'm laughing because I'm like there's probably 20 things that I've thought today. Oh God, that's so frustrating. Bad customer service.

Lisa Hopkins: 48:35

Fair enough. What makes you laugh?

Carmel Dean: 48:40

Little kids.

Lisa Hopkins: 48:42

Love it. What makes you angry?

Carmel Dean: 48:46

Injustice, social injustice.

Lisa Hopkins: 48:49

Yeah, and finally, what makes you grateful?

Carmel Dean: 48:55

Oh, just realizing all the people in my life who I love and who love me.

Lisa Hopkins: 49:04

It's beautiful. What are the top three things that happen so far today?

Carmel Dean: 49:11

Top three like the best three.

Lisa Hopkins: 49:12

Yeah.

Carmel Dean: 49:18

There's a great rainstorm. That was cool. I booked a trip to Australia Nice, and I mean as a general overall great thing that's happened today and for the last 10 days I get to listen to people sing my music.

Lisa Hopkins: 49:38

Absolutely. That's brilliant and what's something you're looking forward to both later today and in the future.

Carmel Dean: 49:46

Later today, I'm really looking forward to making a peanut butter and banana toasted wrap, which I've been thinking about for several days. The bananas ripe enough. So there's that. I'm looking forward to my next 18 months. I finally have some things on the calendar that are ticking the boxes of me being a writer and me being a supervisor and a ranger. I'm excited for my work life.

Lisa Hopkins: 50:21

Yeah, I'm excited for you as well. I can't wait to sort of see how that all evolves.

Lisa Hopkins: 50:29

Listen. I can't thank you enough for joining me today on the podcast. I really appreciate you. Oh, thank you for inviting me to, nanna. This is my pleasure. I've been speaking today with Carmel Dean. Thanks for listening. Stay safe and healthy, everyone, and remember to live in the moment. In music, stop time is that beautiful moment where the band is suspended in rhythmic unison, supporting the soloists to express their individuality In the moment. I encourage you to take that time and create your own rhythm. Until next time, I'm Lisa Hopkins. Have a great rest of your day.