The Power of Creative Living: A Conversation with Lisa Hopkins

Unlock the secrets to creative living in this interview with life and leadership coach Lisa Hopkins, who recently appeared on Jason Liem's Podcast "It's an Inside Job".

Learn how Lisa's unique approach transforms lives and careers of high performers in the creative arts industry and beyond. You'll discover how Lisa's insights can help you tap into your creative potential, no matter your field. With personal stories and her newly published book "The Places Where There Are Spaces: Cultivating a Life of Creative Possibilities," Lisa encourages us to pause, reflect, and embrace the possibilities of a life unrestrained by conventional beliefs.

As we explore the power of self-awareness, Lisa shares tools to enhance personal growth through understanding our strengths and default responses. By challenging old beliefs and recognizing the pivotal role of choice in our lives, you'll learn to navigate both personal and professional landscapes with resilience. Embrace the idea of living in a world of possibilities, where even setbacks become opportunities for growth and understanding.

Lisa takes us on a journey of self-discovery, highlighting the importance of shifting our mindset from "I have to" to "I get to," transforming everyday tasks into opportunities for gratitude and growth. From energetic choices to the transformative power of storytelling, this episode is a treasure trove of wisdom for anyone seeking to live more authentically and bravely. Let Lisa's insights inspire you to create and explore the spaces that enrich your life, leaving you eager to embrace the magic of everyday moments.

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Chapters

• 0:00 Embracing Creativity Through Creating Spaces
• 14:46 Self-Awareness and Strengths
• 22:41 Building Resilient Mindsets Through Self-Exploration
• 26:44 Empowering Choices for High Performance
• 36:51 Unlocking Choice and Gratitude for Growth
• 40:19 Navigating Self-Discovery Through Storytelling
• 48:23 Learning Through Writing and Growth
• 1:00:19 Exploring Spaces for Creative Living

Transcript

Jason Liem: 0:23

Welcome back to. It's an Inside Job. I'd like to introduce Lisa Hopkins to y'all. Lisa, welcome to the show.

Lisa Hopkins: 0:30

Thank you, so great to be here.

Jason Liem: 0:32

Could we kick off by you introducing who you are and what you do?

Lisa Hopkins: 0:36

Sure, I'm a life and leadership coach. I call myself a creative energy optimizer. I work primarily with high performers in the creative arts industry as a coach, also as a trusted advisor, that kind of a thing. I'm super, super passionate about helping people make an impact in the world, and so I love partnering with those folks in order to help them reach their highest potential. So that's something that is really close to my heart.

Lisa Hopkins: 1:05

I am a lifelong performing artist, so I spent most of my life and career in New York City as a director, choreographer and dance educator. I'm super interested in the human behind the headlines, so I'm a podcaster and that's kind of my byline. It's called Stop Time, live in the Moment, but for me it's about holding space for creative people, where my two worlds come together, where these people are meeting me as a coach, not as a peer, and so that's become a very, very integral part of my practice. So yeah, I don't know, it gives you a little bit about me. I'm a mother, I'm a wife, I'm a daughter. I am absolutely a proponent of living creatively. I'm an author.

Lisa Hopkins: 1:51

Now, that's right, I've got to remember that I recently I'm like oh yeah, and now I can actually say I'm an author. So I recently published my new book, which we'll probably talk a little bit about, and that's super exciting for me.

Jason Liem: 2:22

So, yeah, really wanted to do on the show because, as we've talked about Lisa pre-show that you know we on the show we try to focus a lot on resilience, leadership and well-being and I think your book kind of hits all those points and and creativity and curiosity for me are are definite character traits that add to this big picture that we call resilience. Oh yeah, Absolutely.

Jason Liem: 2:51

I was wondering maybe you could maybe kick off when you talk about creative energy you introduced yourself as part of what you do. What does that mean? Can you operationally define that?

Lisa Hopkins: 3:04

That's a fantastic question. Yes, so I believe that we all have access to to living creatively, and it does not mean being being in the creative arts. So, you know, I think the clarification and distinction is important because, um, even though my background is in the arts and a lot of my clients naturally gravitate towards me because I speak their language, um, naturally gravitate towards me because I speak their language, Um, it's um for me. I have, I have lived my life creatively and that has nothing to do with paint or dance or music or any of that. It's really about a mindset. It's really about being able to look at things in in creative ways, to to be faced with an obstacle or an opportunity, you know, and to be able to look at it with curiosity and with that creative brain and, you know, meet it where it's at and really live into the world of choice, if that makes sense. So, for me, creativity is that and the book, you know.

Lisa Hopkins: 4:08

If you think, oh, I'm not a creative person or I'm not a professional creative person because you are a creative person PS, everybody is. But it's not about that. I mean, it's my context in some of the stories, right, but I'm not talking about the dancing. I'm talking about my relationship in my mindset with what I'm seeing and what I'm learning about my relationship in my mindset with what I'm seeing and what I'm learning. When my mentor talked to me about shading my movement, how that became an epiphany for me. Yes, as a dancer, it was a great tool, but as an artist of life, it became almost an affirmation and an understanding, and also a lesson in how to continue to, to embrace the many shades of who I am, um, just as a human, and not not what we're doing, but who we are being.

Jason Liem: 4:56

Yeah, because I guess the main premise of your book or the central idea is spaces, is creating spaces.

Jason Liem: 5:03

And for me, when I was going through my notes about your book you know, when a lot of us are in very fast-paced lives and you know change and uncertainty comes at us at a remarkable pace right now and many of my clients tend to be reacting it's like putting out the fires constantly putting out the fires, not pre-managing situations, like putting out the fires constantly putting out the fires, not pre-managing situations. And your book kind of resonated with me because what you were speaking to and please correct me if I'm wrong, but it's creating spaces. That might be a physical space, that might be a mental space, a pause button per se in which we can stop, think and reflect before we act. And I in your book it's filled with anecdotes and stories or there's a red thread that kind of connects all these. But maybe you can expand on what creating spaces as a central theme of your book and then maybe we can dive into particular things such as mindsets, such as resilience and such.

Lisa Hopkins: 6:05

Yeah, for sure. So for me, for me, you know, the places where there are spaces are the places between, between things, like where you're not looking. I believe that they're always there. I just believe that we don't stop long enough to see them. So, yes, we can learn how to create space and to hold space for ourselves and for others and for ideas and for all of these things, but we can also learn how to be like.

Lisa Hopkins: 6:31

A lot of these musings of mine in the book are about. You know, they're not necessarily like epiphany moments or you know what I mean. They're not like this has just changed my life, or there are moments that you'll be able to relate to, the inner message, I think. And so for me, these were places where there are spaces, right? So I mean, it's funny because I mentioned at the beginning, and again maybe I'll share with you, but I call it the places where the fairies reside. It's a magical place. It's the place between the leap and the landing. It's the place between the leap and the landing. It's the place that between the question and the answer. It's the, it's the place between all of those. It's it's the place between you know, you know me being late for our interview and me being early or whatever. We make it Right. So it's all about, it's just everywhere and I think we miss them. We miss them time and time again and so for me it's not sort of a cautionary tale of don't miss, you know, it's not that literal For me.

Lisa Hopkins: 7:40

I realized and recognized that I live creatively, and creatively doesn't mean how people see me when I'm doing my creative thing, if that makes sense. So so it's, it's so, I think that's. That's hence the sort of subtitle, right Cultivating a life of creative possibilities. Because these are all again moments you know, in my life, some of them are learning, some of them are teachings. But again, moments you know in my life. Some of them are learning, some of them are teachings. But but you know I, sometimes I make up a story. Right, there's a I have a thing called the milestone myth. You know which which I create a, a, a mother and a daughter and and their perspectives of you know. You know when it comes to May 1st or whatever the decision day is, and you can really relate to that. You know I, you know I have adult people. You could not have a child, and you know, or, but you can all relate to the idea that you think you want to do something, you don't really consider why, right. So again, you know, I don't know.

Lisa Hopkins: 8:40

If you want to dig into the space thing, you know you might go. Well, what does that have to do with space? Right, you go. Well, it's it's space in it's space, in that race also to to doing what you think you're supposed to do, to to doing something because it's expected to doing something, right, this space, to stop and ask yourself why is it important to me? Because why it's important to you is going to be completely different. Why it's important to me, you know, be completely different. Why it's important to me.

Lisa Hopkins: 9:09

And as a teacher, when I was teaching dance in particular, I would say to the students and it's a very high bar to get into the program I was teaching in but I would say to those first years, young people, 18 years old, I would say to them congratulations. This may sound counterintuitive, but it's probably been super exciting All your whole life being told that you're talented and you're doing these competitions and you're checking it all off. You're making your way and I'm sure you loved it at some point and maybe you still do. But here's the thing is, you're here now and the social media posts have been made and everyone celebrated you. And now you're here, right here, in this open space, in this classroom, with me and hopefully you'll learn something from me.

Lisa Hopkins: 10:03

But what I want you first to learn is that you do not have to be here, connect to why, redefine, why now, all the time, right, so it's like you know, you ask someone why are you doing that? I don't know. Because I want to whatever. I want to be famous, I want to be on Broadway, I want to whatever it is, that's great, right, it's great. I'm not saying don't have, you know, don't have goals and don't be excited. But when you get there, if you lose track of your why, if you don't hold space in each moment for reconnecting with that, then then then you're on automatic, you're on autopilot, Right, and then you're, you're just just on on, literally on the fast track.

Lisa Hopkins: 10:49

We all hear about this right and and what happens with that, of course, is unsustainable right, even though you're doing the thing that you, you thought you wanted to do, and it may be the thing you want, wanted to do. But then you know, I work with a lot of famous people. They get known just for what they did. So they they need to create for themselves to to remember who, who they are and why. They need to create for themselves, to remember who they are and why they wanted to do what they do in the first place. Because what happens is it becomes, you know, they're performing for other people's reasons, showing up in the way. So if you're like the best in you and it translates to everything, right If you're known for something, right. So people that meet me here on your podcast'll go oh yeah, she's the dot dot dot and they'll.

Lisa Hopkins: 11:29

They'll put me in a right but, if you met me at the grocery store, you'd call me something else. Or if you met me in a dance class, oh, she's the dancer. Or if you met me in canada, you go oh, she's the american, or is she canadian. Or you'd put me in a box, right. So holding space for other people, holding, you know. So for me it's all about connecting with yourself.

Lisa Hopkins: 11:49

I mean, I literally just said to somebody the other day and I'm sure you've heard this a million times in your own words or said it yourself but you know, there's only two sure things in life, only two, because we tend to make everything yes or no, binary, right, but there are only two sure things in life, and that's life and death. Everything in between, that is choice, everything, no matter how hard your life is, I'm not, you know, I'm not talking about you know, living your best life and sitting on, you know, sitting on the beach or whatever, but I'm talking about every moment, like the moment that I texted Jason and told him oh my God, I put the, I put our time. He's like I'm in the Zoom room and I'm, you know, I'm. I am notorious for actually being right on time, like I. That never happens to me, but it happened.

Lisa Hopkins: 12:37

So so I could have gone you know, I, I held space for myself, I created a space and thought, well, here I am talking about it, so it's generated something else, whereas if I, if I decided to say, oh, I got, to show Jason that I'm actually a really responsible person, oh my God, oh my God, then it's all about ego, it's all about me, but that's not who I am, Right, that's not who I want to be, and so I will hold space for myself, and that's. It allows space for our mistakes, because then we can learn from our mistakes, right, um, and so on and so forth, and you know you can, yeah.

Jason Liem: 13:12

So I don't know if that's helpful, but that's very helpful because I think creating spaces that for me, in a sense and maybe I'm oversimplifying this, but between stimulus and response, is that gap we can create right before we Before we react.

Jason Liem: 13:26

We can yeah, exactly, you know, man search for meaning. But it is that you know something can come at me and I can just react. But creating spaces, whether that's psychological space, whether it's actual physical and emotional space, allows time for processing. You know, once we are there, then it's a matter. It's kind of going through the steps. It's easy.

Jason Liem: 13:51

But when we are under the pressure, when the tension and the stress and the anxiety is on, it is so easy for myself and I work with this every week, every day with clients I can slip down into the rabbit hole and forget about that, even though I've talked about this for decades, literally and metaphorically, I guess. But my point is you've talked I mean we don't need to name names here but you've worked with people who are household names. Everybody knows who they are, down to the first year students who have the privilege of working with you in whatever esteemed institution that you worked with. But what is some of your advice? To help people to be cognizant, to stop up, to create the space, because sometimes that's where it goes. It just falls through the cracks and we just react.

Lisa Hopkins: 14:46

Yeah, it's funny because I think there's a misunderstanding that it's. It's about. It's like it's an action item, like how do I do that? And that would be a natural question. Well, how do I do that? And I think it's. My answer to that is awareness. Um, when we are aware, then we are more open. When we are triggered under stress, we're more closed. So if you think of it as a lens, right of the way of looking at something, it's literally that and you know this as well as I do, jason. So it's about living life wide open, but not always the same aperture. It's about living life wide open, but not always the same aperture.

Lisa Hopkins: 15:32

Let's say we are a mix of all of this All the time. We're a mix. We have our default energies, for sure, and it's drawing awareness around where our defaults are under stress and also when things are going really well for us. That's also fantastic information, because sometimes we default to our strengths and we overlook other things. Right? Or if you want to apply that to something, we you know, we to our certain tastes. Maybe like I love that restaurant, I'm going to that restaurant. Again, you know, as opposed to I do love that restaurant, what else might be available to me in this moment. Is that what I want right now? So it's about not living so narrowly. So my advice would be to draw awareness that we are diverse as humans internally all the time, that there's no one way of being, that we are a unique blend of our own energies. But we do have defaults, for sure, right. So the way I default under stress is going to be different than you, and it's also going to be different depending on the stressor for me, um, and for you or whoever, and also, um, you know, on the time of the stressor on, on how you're feeling, what other influencers are going on for you. So we build, we build our repertoire of understanding self.

Lisa Hopkins: 16:53

That's what I do a lot of with my clients. So that cause, again, they're high performers, right. So they're used to success, they're used to achievement. They don't come in and go oh my God, I'm having such a problem, I'm so burned out, like that's not, that's not where they resonate. Sometimes they come in and just have a feeling that there's, there's something, there's something more, and you know they're. They're in circles where it's difficult to say that because from outside everyone's saying to them you got it, you got it all, man, you know and and and that sort of thing and so, but it's it's more about being ready to do the work, to understand that.

Lisa Hopkins: 17:30

It's intrinsic. I'm not going to give you a 12-step plan. You know how to make a 12-step plan. If you want to do that, you're wasting your time with me, but sure.

Lisa Hopkins: 17:39

But I do coach around insight, right, because one insight changes everything, but only if you do something with it. So again, only if you create space for the insight, because how are you going to apply that? Now you can have someone say, well, how are you going to apply that? And then you can, you know, take it to action and create your own world. You know to go from the intrinsic to the external. It's definitely applicable, right?

Lisa Hopkins: 18:06

So you don't live forever in the land of, you know, of the altruistic inner work. It's a lot of inner work, but then we apply it and what, what we realize is that it doesn't apply just to the thing, that that, where you've been really always doing that, right, like, like you were saying, like you know, years and years, I get stressed and I do, I, you know, I respond and react in the same way. So that's awareness. You bring awareness around that, and then sometimes we play a little bit with what would be different if you responded differently. Even if you don't, what might be different? I talk about living in the land of possibilities rather than probabilities, because the probabilities are great when we know what our strengths are. But our strengths can absolutely become our weaknesses. I see it time and time again. I've seen it with myself, right when you just keep Sorry.

Jason Liem: 19:02

So when our strengths become weaknesses for example, if someone says I'm honest, I'm honest in every case. For me, all these sort of strengths when we look at them we're kind of like bell curves. And you know, as we build up the bell curve that's great because we're developing. And then there's a sweet spot at the top, at the peak. But where strengths can sometimes become disadvantages in my vernacular, is when we head down the backside of that bell curve where it starts to actually maybe bite us in a sense, if you have.

Lisa Hopkins: 19:35

What do you mean? Yeah, no, I'm curious.

Jason Liem: 19:36

What do you mean like bite you well for example, if someone says I'm honest, I'm an honest person, right, I'm transparent in everything, I think that's great to a certain point. But there may be a point where maybe it's best to tell a white lie and not be brutally honest with everything, about everything you're thinking, because that can that can affect us in a sense, where there's there, there can be downsides to things, where people say I'm very thorough or I'm very um conscientious. Well, there's a point where you can be conscientious. But there is a point where you can be conscientious, but there is a point where you're so conscientious that you're sacrificing the me always for the we, for the other person.

Jason Liem: 20:18

And we don't kind of respect ourselves. So is this kind of I don't know if it's the same sort of area you're talking about where strength becomes a weakness, or maybe you could speak to that?

Lisa Hopkins: 20:29

Yes, I mean, I completely hear what you're saying. What stands out to me about what you're saying and is is that I would go further and I do this a lot with my clients is is to be more uh, I guess granular with our words, right to be more, more specific and bespoke to what these, these words mean to us. I think that's's so important. The brain has only the information and data based on. It's incredible. But it only has data based on what you've done or what it knows, or what it's seen or what you tell it. So if you say I'm afraid of public speaking, it's going to find all the reasons to tell you don't do that, because you're going to be in danger, because you're afraid of that Right. So to your point, the word that you used when you said, when you said honesty as a strength, I probably would say well, is it? Is it more a value or a strength? And the reason I say that? Because the way I think of strengths in this context are ways of being, because everyone's always talking about ways of being right. They want to know about actionable stuff. When I'm this oh, this is how I do things, this is how I get shit done, this is how I right, or whatever, I'll do that. And so yes, to your point. Absolutely.

Lisa Hopkins: 21:54

Sometimes you take on too much because, right, everyone expects it of you and so on and so forth, so that it can bite you in that way. But I think ultimately it's you telling yourself that you're good at this as well and that you start to believe that it's the only way to do something, and so you rely on it. It becomes attached to your, you become attached to your strength. So a perfect example is in the, in the life of a dancer.

Lisa Hopkins: 22:20

You know when you I mean you know what I mean when I used to be able to do that, but I can't do that anymore and they so, so your identity gets lost in that right, or whatever it is you do. You know it could be, you know as we, as we get older, or um, but it can. It can also be you might be overshadowing the potential of your team. Well, she always does it, so we'll let her do that. So if you want to lead, right, maybe you step back a bit, maybe you strengthen other areas of yours. You learn, you lean into that, finding what you don't know, because that's where you get strong right.

Jason Liem: 22:55

It's like if you overuse a muscle, you wear it out very true, because one of the just to rewind back is one of the things you said when you work with clients is understanding the self, and what I pulled from your book resilience you kind of encapsulated in, I saw sort of three things a strong sense of self, maintaining a positive outlook and learning from past experience. Create to help clients, whether they be dancers or corporate clients or what have you. How do you help them create a more robust mindset by understanding the self? What is it that you try to explore with them? I know previously you were talking about understanding the why of what they're doing, understand the why or the reasoning behind their motivations that are drivers per se. How do you help them sort of discover the self to build more resilient mindsets?

Lisa Hopkins: 23:57

I help them to recognize by by sort of asking them questions, right, I don't know, like. I think it's. It's very important that people understand in coaching that, at least my philosophy that I do not know the answers for you, I, you, you know, if you hired me as a consultant, I could give you some ideas or whatever right, that's a different hat, but but when it comes to coaching, I'm an expert at listening to, not to what you're telling me, but to what you're telling yourself. And then I get curious about that, but in an unattached way. So I might just, with permission, say, jason, I noticed that you said you know honesty was one of your strengths. Tell me more about that, or whatever. You know, you know what I mean, and and and literally get them to, to, to spend the whole space so that they will spend the time reflecting, cause I believe they know the answers, I 100% believe they know the answers and they just don't know how to get there.

Lisa Hopkins: 24:57

And so trust becomes a huge thing. Trust is a repeated theme, I find, and it's trust of self, it's trust of the process, it's trust of you know, trusting that it can be scary when you're growing. I feel like internally, like when you're growing, um, doing the personal work, it can be scary because it's it's not as well, it's not as predictable, it's, um, you know you're living in possibility, but in possibility there's no clean answers and that's scary. That's where creatives thrive, because we start with a blank slate and that's where we get really excited, right, but? But in life, life is a blank slate and so we get in our lanes, right? You hear it all the time. You know, stay in your lane, stay in your lane. And it just becomes about getting it done and achieving and, and, and you know, spinning the wheels as fast as you can, and not well, not literally not smelling the roses, you know, and, and I think it's about learning that life is now, it's right now. It's fantastic that you're, you know you're doing whatever it is you're doing, or you know, or I feel you, that that that life sucks, you know right now. But what you know, let's dive into that, like's dive into that, and what else is true? And I think often I say this is great when there's something that doesn't work, someone who doesn't get a job. I had a corporate client who was up for a very big job. He was very, very excited about it and didn't get it, and instead of me going, oh yeah, that's too bad, I was like that's fantastic. What, what? What did you learn what you know? It cause it isn't about the thing I said. You know.

Lisa Hopkins: 26:44

The goal is to be the best that you are. I think that's the bet in everybody I work with and how I work with myself. Be the best, learn how to be the best that you can in everything you do, always. So I was late today for the podcast. Is that the best? Do I normally do that? No, was it the best that I could do in that moment? Yes, nobody plays to fail. Well said, yes, nobody plays to fail. Nobody, nobody plays to fail.

Lisa Hopkins: 27:17

And I think we need to understand that our best is a spectrum, that my best yesterday is not the same as my best right now or, you know, in three hours. So we can learn and we can call information about that, so that we can be, as you know, especially in performance, in high performance, right, which means leadership or whatever. I don't mean like dance performance, I mean, you know, high performing in any field. You know, if you're aware of your strengths and how you want to show up, then you become aware and we do this work. You become aware of the influencers. You become aware of what actual things you know mental, physical, spiritual, emotional. You know environmental all those things that help you be your best. I help my clients recognize their strengths, recognize that they're not their only strengths. Learn how to put them in the toolbox right. Learn that that's part of their foundation.

Lisa Hopkins: 28:14

It's like self-care, right. So many people go oh, you know, I'm running on empty, but I'm great when I work this hard and everything, but then I burn out and so on and so forth. But now, none of my tools. You know my candles and baths and books and walks or whatever they're not working, you know, or whatever baths and books and walks and or whatever they're not working, you know, or whatever. And it's like well, yeah, because we start to associate. If you only do self-care as a band-aid when you're stressed, then you associate self-care with I'm stressed, so that that glass of wine at the end of the day becomes a. You know not I'd like to have a glass of wine, because I enjoy a glass of wine. It becomes associated with it.

Lisa Hopkins: 28:53

I must be stressed, and so I teach my clients to. It sounds so simple, but you know it's amazing, right, but but it's like, why don't you roll down, not just when you're stressed, or roll your head or take a while, you know, but all the time, like, you know, why don't you build a foundation? I teach them to have a menu because what happens is then we get dependent on well, when I run, I feel great, but I have no time to run. It's the first thing that goes off my calendar or whatever, and you go. Well, what else is on your menu? So the goal is not to run, the goal is not to lose weight, the goal is not to just, you know, look good in the dress at the presentation. The goal is self-care every day. So it does not need to look the same every day.

Lisa Hopkins: 29:40

So create yourself a menu and the goal is just do something from your menu every day. It doesn't matter what it is. So you could have two-minute meditation, you could have 15-minute walk, you could have whatever you want on your menu, all the things. Only you know what. What you know chills you down, Um and um, and then you do it every day, not just when you're stressed. You start building a foundation and then you can amp up when you are stressed. Then you go okay, now I really got to amp up, I got to get more sleep and I got to eat better and I got you know, or whatever it might be, and so that's again, you know, understanding the diversity of who you are and not just being reactive. I'm stressful now, so I'm going to change gears and I'm going to try this, but it's too late then. Right, it can be eventually.

Lisa Hopkins: 30:29

Or I always warm up this way before I go to do a presentation or before I go out on stage. Why is it not working anymore? And then you start freaking out about why, what's wrong with me. You say, well, there are other ways to warm up. Have you? Have you explored other ways to warm up that you also like? Then you've got choice. Then you're living, and I think we talked about this before. You know, I have a big thing that I talk and teach about energetic choice. It's important. It's important to know that you always have choices and so energetic choice is just the choices.

Jason Liem: 31:06

You know, choices are always us, between. You know, cradle and grave it's life is about choices. As you said, it's a blank slate right here and now, but the choice I make will start to bring life to that. But when you mean energetic choices, can you sort of maybe expand on that?

Lisa Hopkins: 31:25

yeah, no, for sure, so for sure. So I have something I call the choice capacitor. I made it a visual so that people could really it started really resonating with my clients, and so I kind of made it something more specific, which I don't always do. I tend to be more sort of, you know, feel it in the moment and, you know, translate it that way, and it really has shifted their thinking. So I'll share it with you. So I put it in a model of five energetic choices, right, and this is the way we speak to ourself, basically.

Lisa Hopkins: 31:55

So the first energetic choice I call I can't, right, so when you say I can't, you're obviously limiting yourself. Right, I can't do that, either because I don't have time, or you know you have reasons why You're telling yourself. You have all sorts of reasons. Usually, when you say I can't, there's so much behind that. Why? Because I'm not good enough, because I don't have time, because I did that before, because you know, whatever. And how many times, you know, do the listeners say I can't? I mean, honestly, how many times have you said I can't, even lightly to yourself? You know, if someone says hey, jason, do you want to go for dinner tonight? Oh, you know what I can't. Even that creates, reduces choice. Right, you have other choices of how to say that. I'm not saying that you should go or anything, so there's, I can't.

Lisa Hopkins: 32:53

The second one is what I call an I have to. So it's an energetic choice that I call I have to. And when we say I have to, we get through things with force. I have to because if I don't, it's the ultimate binary, if I don't, I'll fail. I have to. But it also helps us, you know. It does help us push through stuff, it helps us get stuff done. So you know, and we do it all the time right, I have to do this, I have to do this, and we move up to the middle of and it's kind of an arc. You know I can share, I can share the model with you the choice capacitor.

Lisa Hopkins: 33:34

So these are all sort of the less conscious, right Energetic choices. The right in the middle you've got I should and I call I should the tipping point right Into the higher conscious kind of energetic choices. But I should is characterized by shame. So there's a knowing that you could do that, that you are capable of doing that, and it can motivate you to do something, but it's usually connected to I should do that because I said I would, or I should do that, you know, because I can, or I, you know, we all know we should all over the place, right. But as soon as you lose the shame you're living in I could right and when you recognize simply the potential without the shape, then you start to actually feel at choice. So then you know. So, jason, do you want to go to dinner? You did know you could go. I can't, I have to because I said I would at some point and this is that she asked me.

Lisa Hopkins: 34:33

That's why I have to go. Or? Or you could say no, I should go because it's good for me to meet with colleagues, whatever. Right then. Or you could go, I could, but it doesn't mean you have to go. See, it's not like you're going to go necessarily, and when you get into I could, then it's easy to move into. Not only could I, but the fourth energetic choice which is I want to Sorry between I want and I should, so I could, so I should. When you lose, the shame becomes.

Jason Liem: 35:09

I could right.

Lisa Hopkins: 35:09

So okay, when you lose the shame, okay, yep, got it and then, once you're in, I could, when you start to feel that you're capable of stuff you, it's easy to, to shift to the next if you want. And again, it's not, you know, it's not mandatory that you shift, it's just that you know you have these, these ways of speaking to yourself. You, you know which is I want to, and when you say I want to, you get a little bit more like you can hear it in the tone of my voice no, I want to do that. And then you start to have reasons why you want to do it, as opposed to I can't, where you have all the reasons why you can't I'm a loser, I'm too old, I'm not enough, I'm. But here you're like, no, I kind of want to do that. You're not doing it yet. Maybe, maybe you are, but you know you're like, no, no, I want to do that.

Lisa Hopkins: 35:52

And then you start saying why, and then the why I started helping. I want to do that because right, so it starts to become connected to who you are. And then the ultimate right, and this is really transformed some of my clients. So simple and I didn't have the whole model, I just just say it all the time is I get to that's, that's the highest energetic choice, the highest conscious, and it's choice with gratitude. I get to do this. So not only are you, you know, are you doing it, but you're having gratitude while you're doing it, and that's huge, because gratitude often comes in retrospect and I don't. We could go down that rabbit hole you know oh that was great.

Jason Liem: 36:34

Oh.

Lisa Hopkins: 36:34

I really appreciate that. Or or in the hope world of of the future, of like, oh no, I'm practicing gratitude because this is really good and I'm afraid it's going to be taken away. It's fear-based right, but when you're at, I get to, you are living in the moment and you are grateful for it. Now, this does not mean that you only you know that you use, I get to like some sort of you know secret or manifestation that you put it, you know, and that everything will transform into roses. What it means is that when you're doing things that you actually don't really want to do but you know you're going to do, there are things in our life, like taxes, that we know we're going to do because they are connected to being responsible and so on and so forth. If you apply I get to the things that you don't want to do, it can be life-changing If you know you're going to do them anyways, right, so it's like it's a powerful reframe.

Jason Liem: 37:29

I mean it is a very powerful reframe because I think you know, we all have our personal storms and some of those storms we can move through. But sometimes those personal storms, they hover like a hurricane right and we need to move into the center eye to find that again, to create space by may use that metaphor into the eye and then maybe it is to be more cognizant, as you said, to who am I, to understand ourselves and part of it, I. This is a brilliant model from I have to to all the way to I get to and I. I understand very well now what you mean by energy, because all of a sudden your energy starts boosting. Because when I'm working with clients and I'm sure it's indicative of the clients you have also in the stories you ask them, they will tell you a story.

Jason Liem: 38:18

Our brains work on stories and a lot of the times we are not cognizant of where a lot of people, even myself, I should, I should, I should, and it's a type of what we call in clinical psychology. It's kind of guilt loading I should do this, I should do this, and if we don't cross that line, okay, here's a little more guilt, here's a little more guilt, but we don't realize how many times a day, how many times a week, we use I should, I should, I should, and so I can understand that and that can really leak our energy out when we feel we're forced or we have to, and sometimes we have to, sometimes we should have. I mean, I'm not saying it's all bad, but yeah, it is hamstringing us, it's.

Lisa Hopkins: 39:06

Sometimes it is putting handcuffs on ourselves and limiting choices 100% and, and I think the key is again with the I get to, is it applies its choice with gratitude. So, so you, you take ownership of whatever it is you're doing, and whether it's the dishes, the taxes, you know, or whatever it is. And it changes when you start talking to yourself about. You know, oh, I have to get on a train to go to my you know sixth show of the week, or whatever I get to go. I mean, like you know, when you start to really recognize that, it's easy to find. Well, we are, as you well know, we are negatively biased, we're wired for the negative because that keeps us safe. Right, I mean, so that's what our brain does. But you know, that's the old brain, that's the primitive brain. So we work on, you know, the more conscious brain, which requires slowing down, you know, and teaching the old one to come in like let's use, let's integrate. For me that's the balance piece, let's integrate here Because, yeah, man, you are my pinch hitter when I'm really in trouble. You know, primitive brain. But you know, let's get some discernment instead of judgment. Let's not jump to conclusions. Let's you know, let's ask what? Elsement instead of judgment, let's not jump to conclusions, let's you know, let's ask what else is true, let's think again. Let's slow down to speed up. You know all of these things and you know that was great to help me get where I got here.

Lisa Hopkins: 40:37

But how I could really use you is this. And that's where re-scripting comes in right. I do a lot of that with my clients. It like no, no, that limiting belief you had served you somewhere in your life. It absolutely served you. There's nothing wrong with you like people, you know. That's the other thing, my, you know. I said there's nothing wrong with you.

Jason Liem: 40:55

It's just old programming, it's just you know, oh and so so when you've moved on, the world's moved on, but that old rules your head. The old scripts are still kind of rumbling around the back of your head.

Lisa Hopkins: 41:07

Right, 100%. This reminds me it's funny because I pulled. Maybe I can share this with you.

Jason Liem: 41:12

I pulled this short passage from yeah, please read the passage, that'd be brilliant.

Lisa Hopkins: 41:15

It kind of relates. So again, you know, each chapter is, I don't know, two pages or something. You can pick it up anywhere. It doesn't. It's not sequential. So you know, if you don't read the whole book, it's not the end of the and everything includes some some journaling space if you want at the end and and like a a coaching prompt. But well, I'll give you this is an example of of the kind of thing. So let me go here. So this one is chapter seven and it's's called Navigating your Own Course. It's kind of what we're talking about.

Lisa Hopkins: 41:48

So have you ever shared a thought or an idea before you've had a chance to process it yourself? Testing the waters, you float the idea to friends or family, hoping that they'll get on board. If they don't do, you second guess yourself, wondering if you were just being silly or selfish for even thinking it in the first place. And then, based on the new insecure thoughts that are flooding your brain about the original idea, you decide not to rock the boat, convincing yourself that it's better to suppress your thoughts than to make any waves. So you bottle it up and toss it away into the sea of unprocessed ideas and move on with the more predictable, familiar terrain of life as you know it. Alternatively, what happens if they do get on board with your idea? Right away, a sudden current of affirmations washes over you and, buoyed by their support, you ride the wave of enthusiasm, eager to impress. The course has been clearly mapped out for you, charted by the opinions of well-meaning friends and family. And so you show up as expected, arriving at all the scheduled ports of call on time.

Lisa Hopkins: 43:01

Remember that little idea that you once felt drawn toward. Remember that little idea that you once felt drawn toward. It has now grown into something you are being pushed into without giving yourself the chance to consider why. And it's perfectly natural to want to feel championed by those. We love A quick energy boost, but at the end of the day, road or journey, there's only you. They aren't connected to the thing you wanted to do. They've tied it to what matters to them.

Lisa Hopkins: 43:41

So when you arrive at the destination, you know the one where you thought you wanted to go. You feel like a castaway, stranded on a desert island, trying to remember why you even wanted to go there in the first place. Where is everyone? They've moved on. They're good. However well-meaning your friends and family are, they don't know what is best for you. Only you know what is best for you. The rush we feel from external validation is nothing more than a quick hit. It's unsustainable. What will keep us on course is truly connecting to why things really matter to us. So the next time you have a new idea, take the time you need to process it before you spill it out or bottle it up. Your thoughts are there for a reason, and when you take the time to explore what they signify, you can take the helm and navigate your own course.

Jason Liem: 44:36

Well-written, well-written. I think it's very astute the way you've put it together, because then it comes back to the premise of this whole conversation to create that space, yeah Right, in which you can take the time to assess, to consider, to weigh, as you said, possibilities and maybe not always probabilities.

Lisa Hopkins: 44:56

Yeah, you know, and I mean the prompt I put at the end is what's something you'd like to do, no matter what anyone thinks. I think it's so important to really take the time to connect to whatever it is that you want to do, that you want to say that, you want to be that, whatever an idea, whatever, because then you're impermeable, you're not relying on that, that's all just the cherry on the cake. If people like what, you're impermeable, you're not relying on that, that's all just the cherry on the cake. People like what you're doing. That's fabulous, you know, um, and it allows you to well to be your own champion, you know, and uh, yeah, and and really live, live bravely and openly.

Jason Liem: 45:48

Yeah, because what it comes back to is the sort of the stories we tell ourselves, the stories we tell about ourselves in relation to the world, people around us, what we do, who we are, what drives us, and I really like this sort of this forgive if I'm not using your terms, but the energy choices of this five, would you call it the energy capabilities?

Lisa Hopkins: 46:11

Yeah, so the model. I'll send it to you. The model is called the choice capacitor Capacitor, sorry, yeah, and I call it energetic choice. Those are energetic choices, yeah.

Jason Liem: 46:23

Because a lot of the stories from my experience working both in a clinical corporate setting, over, you know, the time of my career, is that all stories begin with one of these usually yeah, I get to, I want to, I could, I'm willing to, I should, I have to, I must, what have you? And then a lot of the stories we tell ourselves about a specific situation may only be two or three lines, two or three sentences, or they could be very productive and very helpful questions, or they can be very negative. Questions that sort of drive us into the ground and for me, storytelling is key. How do you work with storytelling with people?

Lisa Hopkins: 47:05

Oh, wow, uh, that's a big one, because where you will what's up?

Jason Liem: 47:12

take it where you will.

Lisa Hopkins: 47:13

The question no, I mean, I think it's funny. I literally have a. I was thinking I was looking, cause I think I'm pretty sure there's a chapter called the stories we tell ourselves. Let me just see if that's true. Uh, but yeah, I mean I will answer your question, I promise. But let me, it's funny when you look at your own book, oh I, I call it the lies we tell ourselves. I don't know if it's relevant, I mean probably it is, but let me grab it. Yeah, let me grab this for a sec.

Jason Liem: 47:46

Um, sorry, jace yeah, but a lot of it is. You know the narratives, you know our brains do lie to us. I mean, they're not always telling us the truth, but the the thing is we sometimes believe those lies and then we go down the rabbit hole and we stress ourselves, drive anxieties. But if it this a short chapter that you'd like to share, or is there some poignant point from it?

Lisa Hopkins: 48:10

Yeah, and I might not even Let me see it is. Oh, this might actually I don't know, this may or may not resonate, so this is about a lie. This is something that happened to me where I had a client ask me if he could share something that he said to someone else and what I observed was how I responded in my head to it and where I ended up responding to him. It's quite short. I don't know Shall I share that with you or not. Please, please, please. Okay, that's quite short.

Jason Liem: 48:38

I don't know Shall I share that with you. Please, please, please, okay, that'd be great.

Lisa Hopkins: 48:40

So it's called the Lies we Tell Ourselves. It's chapter 21. So I woke up yesterday morning to a text message from a client asking me if he could use something powerful that I had said in a session with their own client. Before I had a moment to receive the honor of the request, my egoic mind puffed up with blustery pride. They better credit you if they use your words. It warned me, telling me that I needed to protect myself and my ideas. It went on to promise me that it was keeping me safe from plagiarism and advised me to hold on very tightly to what was mine. Something felt horrible in my body, so I just stopped to feel it. I listened to what my body knew, but my mind was too narrowly focused to see. It didn't take long. Just enough time to take in. A few breaths was all I needed to feel. The warmer, wiser wisdom flow into my mind. From that sage perspective, I was able to recognize that the message from the frightened little voice inside me telling me that I needed to protect myself was untrue. This revelation exposed the tiny-minded thoughts for what they were lies.

Lisa Hopkins: 49:53

But like good food, we take in the flavor of thoughts, ideas and experience and mix them together in different measures to make a new recipe bespoke to us. The individual ingredients aren't owned. The recipe is ours to create and recreate. I extend the same invitation to you, dear reader by all means add and share anything you've tasted in my kitchen and add your own unique flavor. I went on to suggest to my client serve it rather than use it with the people at his table and allow them the opportunity to add their own seasoning. My client messaged right back and thanked me, saying that I had a way with words. I thanked him for inspiring them. I had a way with words.

Jason Liem: 50:38

I thanked him for inspiring them Very. I really like that story. I very much like that story.

Lisa Hopkins: 50:50

You know it's, you know, letting go of those narratives that constrain us, create the space. That's it, you know, and what came out of it was a chapter in my book. So you know I could have stopped. I could have stopped at yeah, no, that's not good, I'm trademarking that, and could you wait? And you know all that nonsense. Or I could just have said no, or I could have you know, and instead I stopped. I created space. That was a place where there was space where I did just didn't react to what came into my head. But what was really fun and I do this all the time in the book is to be the observer and the participant. So I'm watching how I'm thinking and that's been really fun. So a lot of it is musings like that.

Jason Liem: 51:31

No, it's fascinating. I have a sort of maybe a curveball question here. I ask this to a lot of authors and yes, you are an author now you have that professional feather in your cap, so let's just give kudos where kudos are earned. But what did you learn about yourself through writing the book?

Lisa Hopkins: 51:51

Oh, that's a great question. So about five years ago the title came to me. I wasn't actually writing the book. I had always wanted to write a book, so it was never attached to I'm a coach, because I was barely a coach then and I want to write a book, so that's not the way I roll. But I had the title the Places when there's Spaces, and I made it not this title page but it never changed.

Lisa Hopkins: 52:18

I knew that I was going to write a book called that and you know, over the years I had put stuff in it and it was kept a little bit precious, like I can look at my old notes where and maybe that's well, it probably will be another book but where I started not seeing what was actually in front of me, because during the pandemic I never stopped writing, but I was writing these little solo episodes on my podcast, right? So it started as an interview show, but then I started fooling around. I had time, so I started recording my voice and it was my daughter who said actually, if you recorded that and put it on your podcast, I would listen to that. I like shorter form and it's really cool. So I you know I was I'd never done anything like that before. I'm like, but it's an interview show, blah, blah, blah. So I got over myself still not thinking that this would be anything. And then everyone on the podcast probably responded almost more and to this day more to those kinds of musings and teachings than even the interviews. You know, they're different, they're related but they're different. So along I did, you know. So I kept doing it really like really regularly, and then I started realizing, you know, when I had this separate idea, you know, with different chapters, you know, and I was like that was really, I was really in my old creative brain, almost it was really funny because, you know, and I was like that was really, I was really in my old creative brain, almost it was really funny because, you know, I, you know, like my professional creative brain. Then I thought, wait a second, and I started going what if I like, rewrote and call I, you know, rewrote some of these, pick some of them, it's already there, I teach that. I teach that a lot. You teach what you most need to learn. I, I, it's already there, I teach that. I teach that a lot. You teach what you most need to learn, right Is, it's already right in front of you. So I was like holy cow, I have so much writing.

Lisa Hopkins: 54:06

And then, of course, you know, for me it was, it was the picking, and then I never wanted anything to be the same. So it became another level of taking what I had written kind of off cuff into actually writing it. Like you know, there was a bit of that I mean, some of it is representative of what's on there. And then also finding, like I remembered, I found, an old blog that I'd started writing and I grabbed that. I grabbed, you know, just one thing from that.

Lisa Hopkins: 54:33

So what I learned, the question was, what did I learn? I learned not to be precious and to recognize what you've already done, to not silo your worlds, to recognize that you know, um, it's okay to do things your own way. Um, I had a lot of people. Well, I didn't really tell anybody, I was just kind of doing it, um, and then it came together kind of relatively quickly, I mean, you know, in terms of when I, when I started doing that and I got a you know the publisher and stuff and they helped me along. I mean it's self-published but with a really good publisher, like so it wasn't like a kind of on amazon like, where you know where the bar I feel is low. Like I feel, like I'm like that. I'm, like you know, as a dancer I'm like anyone could you could open a dance studio, you know, like you know what I mean, like it's like to me. I felt like no, like I, I would like to have somebody that's gonna support me and guide me. You know they've been wonderful anyway. So, yeah, that helps me, because I help keep me on track, because I am a very growth mindset kind of gal but I can get into doing so many things and seeing so many possibilities. You know that, that you know it can get in my way sometimes. So that was so. So I learned that that was really helpful and I'm still on that journey. I'm learning that you. You know I'm really happy with the success of everything I'm doing, but I'm also cognizant that there's a way to grow that is beyond just what I do myself, if that makes sense. Um, and it's not that I'm like precious about, like well, I don't want anyone to edit my well, I don't want anyone to edit my podcast and I did design the cover of my book. I mean, there are things that I will take control of, but there are people that are experts at certain things you know. So that's I'm starting to learn that.

Lisa Hopkins: 56:34

Now it's about the I know my why. Right, I feel like my why has always been very connected, and so now I'm kind of living in the how, which is kind of fun, and so, um, I'm exploring that. I'm exploring because we all do, we, we as mental health professionals, tend to really focus on the why, which obviously is very important, and the self and all that. And I start to think about, you know, the who it is you're being, um, and then also the how, how it is you, because you do have and there's again choice. There's so many choices about how you do things. So it's so connected to the being right I think people used to think about, or I used to think about, or I don't know, but you know we think we tend to think about how is like, give me a plan, but how is connected, I believe, to the who, and I love that they have the same letters in them, so you will hear something about that soon but because they're so tied together. So it's really the integration of all of it.

Lisa Hopkins: 57:36

So you know, I talked to somebody. There's a somebody asked me recently about. It was another coach, actually, who was asking me about. I can't remember what his question was, but it was kind of you know what, where, where are you at, or you know, one of those sort of open-ended questions. And I said you know, I've written a lot about and I've thought a lot about my life as a mosaic. And in fact there's a.

Lisa Hopkins: 58:02

There is a thing about in the book, about living my life like a mosaic, which is, you know, you know piecing it together, making all these beautiful parts, and you know how, when the, when the candles lower, you know it glows differently than when the candles new and full, and all of that. You know all those metaphor and um. But I said to him I'm getting the sense that, although I really identify with that, that it's time to break the mosaic, this beautiful mosaic that I've created, that I love, that glows in different ways, and all the aspects of me and that's been embraced by the grout of life or whatever said. But but I'm getting the sense that I would like to, to, to, to, let it just all the pieces now to go out and then liquid or liquefy. I'm getting like this liquefy vibe. So I'm getting really woo, woo but that.

Lisa Hopkins: 58:50

But I feel like you know what I mean like it feels very cemented in when it's, when it's pieced in together, and I love the idea and the metaphor of the glow and identify with that. But I am feeling more liquid now. I'm feeling more all my worlds are integrating, they don't need the grout anymore and and I I want to flow in it. I want to flow in that and I think that's probably gets imparted to my clients for sure. You know, just just by osmosis too, right, but that's where I'm at. Like, if I were, you know, sort of coaching myself.

Jason Liem: 59:21

I don't know if that kind of yeah but I mean, I think you know all authors that I've spoken to. They have learned something about themselves through the process of writing, articulating their thoughts, their emotions, experience down onto paper, and it's through that process. It can be quite cathartic in some regards, depending we are coming close to the top of our conversation. I was wondering, lisa, was there any last words or thoughts or wisdom you'd like to leave with our listeners today?

Lisa Hopkins: 59:53

Gosh wisdom. You know what I think? Just remain open. We all have the capacity to be open. You're not in danger. You're not in danger if you are connected to yourself. You're smart, right? You know, if you really think about it, you know where you're actually in danger and where you're not. And I think to just stop, create the space, find the places where there are spaces to. They're magical. I mean, there are magical, magical places everywhere, spaces everywhere for living. That's where the living is, that's where the living is. And when you start doing that, it's counterintuitive because you're like your brain will go no, no, no, but that. But I don't have time to do that. I'll do it tomorrow. I'll put it on my calendar. Don't put on your calendar, just allow yourself to be open to it and you will see it. Just just even put the thought in. I will be open to see the places where there are spaces and then tell me what you come up with yeah, it's, it's.

Jason Liem: 1:01:01

It's a great read, folks. It's the places where there are spaces cultivating a life of creative possibilities. Lisa, thank you very much for your generosity of time and sharing and actually reading a couple passages, or a couple of chapters, passages from the book it was. It was very interesting to hear your stories and reflections because it's got my brain kind of cooking now with all I have other questions, but as it may have to be a part two, so thank you very much, lisa, for your time today.

Jason Liem: 1:01:32

I really appreciate it was a great conversation it's been my, my pleasure, my absolute pleasure.

Lisa Hopkins: 1:01:37

Thanks for having me.